Saturday, November 1, 2008

WHY NO'BAMA!!!

Palin has been accused by liberal bloggers of saying Obama "pals around with terrorists" (plural) --and this is called an error because Ayres is only ONE terrorist, and besides, he's a "reformed terrorist" and now a "respected educator"--according to Obama and the Media.

Palin's use of the plural is actually justified with or without including Prof. Khalidi, as both Prof. and Mrs. Ayres were terrorists and are still revolutionaries in their ideology. Ayres, in this century, said he wished he had bombed more than he did as a Weatherman (terrorist group when Obama was 8.) Ayres is proud and blatantly unrepentent about his past --so we can be sure that Obama knew his current ideology is the same as it always was.

So, it is true; Obama HAS palled around with ex-terrorists, pro-terrorists, and revolutionaries. We don't hear of any other connections he has had. Farrakhan (who favored a separate black Muslim state), Ayres, Obama and the Syrian, Tony Reszco --all live in the same neighborhood and have political/ideological/financial ties. Ayres DID give Obama a fund-raiser, though Obama denied it in debate with McCain --proving he can parse his words like a Bill Clinton. Farrakhan publically, recently, praised Obama as a "messiah" on some high holy day in Islam --or his version of it. (National Review) Obama gave Ayres a glowing book review on his revolutionary book against the U.S. prison system. Rezco, a criminal who cheated Ill. gov't. , lives next door to Obama and helped Obama get a house for less than market value. And Obama reportedly praised Khalidi at a farewell dinner (and ate with him often) and Khalidi is a PLO defender/spokesperson. (PLO, my young friends, is Yassir Arafat's Palestinian Liberation Organization --a terrorist group that ruled in Palestine against Israel until HAMAS got control.) In fact Reszco, Khalida, and Farrakhan all have Middle-eastern roots --as does Obama with his Muslim father and Muslim step-father. Granted, he was raised by protestant white folks after some years in Islamic Indonesia with his mother, where she got divorced from Obama's Indonesian step-father.

Then there's Rev. Wright --he listened to him for 20 years without hearing any of his proven racist, "God D America" rhetoric. Obama must be one of those guys who sleeps in church, I guess.

While we may all sit on boards with people we don't agree with--and we all may have been to lunch with people we don't agree with --OBAMA has been very palsy-walsy with this high-powered trio of Middle-eastern guys who lack sympathy for Israel --who think America is deeply flawed and needs THEIR kind of REVOLUTION --whatever that is. Plus Ayres and Dohrn, who raised the son of fellow radicals who are in jail for murder --who named their own son after a Black Panther (also terrorists) who got killed in a battle that killed a policeman.

Obama wasn't named the most liberal senator in the Senate (by his voting record) for nothing.

Furthermore, Obama has favored terrorism in the womb consistently. Woman's choice pre-empts baby's life, even when that baby survives abortion. He listened to the horror stories by the nurses about babies left in hospital closets to die, and still voted 4 times against BAIPA to protect the survivors of abortion, stating that the mother's choice to have her baby dead is preeminent. He says a first priority for him will be to sign FOCA right away if elected (the proposed Freedom of Choice Act revived by liberal Pelosi) --which will nullify all state restrictions against abortion achieved during pro-life administrations--including the ban on partial birth abortions, parental consent laws, limitations on abortion funding and fetal experimentation, and more.

We are electing a radical with radical friends, a wolf in sheep's clothing. He seems to see himself AND HIS KIND OF CHANGE as a panacea; the ignorant celebrity-loving masses agree with him. Perhaps being president will humble him. I hope so, before he ruins the U.S. with crazy court judges, like the one Clinton appointed who said we should release into the U.S., 20 Chinese, Islamic-trained terrorists who trained in Afghanistan. So far the Justice Dep't has appealed and these Asian terrorists are not yet released, because it IS against US policy to do this. But some judges either don't know the law or don't care.

Releasing terrorists into the US is almost as stupid as sending them back to Afghanistan to sign up again with the Taliban resurgence there. I hope, if GITMO closes, that we at least send the prisoners to Afghan courts and prisons--which, you know, will be more inhumane than GITMO ever was. But it would be even MORE inhumane (and stupid) to release Taliban soldiers back into Afghanistan to do again that for which we put them in prison at GITMO --for being "enemy combatants." And worse yet to release them into the U.S. Which has either been proposed or accomplished in the case of some of the Taliban combatants. I'm sure I read that some have been released into the U.S.

Our courts are getting to be veritable cuckoos' nests!

And one more reason for NO'BAMA! He thinks Communism is the same as sharing--saying we would call him a communist for sharing his toys in Kindergarten. No, I would call that sharing. Communism is confiscating the wealth of others such that everyone is poor. Free enterprise and capitalism are the greatest ways to spread around the wealth --which is why the US's poor are richer than most anywhere else in the world. Gov't is to equalize opportunity as much as we can, but not results.

I'm also tired of hearing that Bush gave the biggest tax cuts to the rich. Did they really get bigger cuts? Or is it just that their cuts amounted to more money because they always pay the most taxes??? In any case, when he cut the taxes, the economy surged, and unemployment dropped. Our troubles started up again economically in great part because of the crisis of confidence about Wall Street --and that was not a GOP fiasco --and the high gas prices --caused by consumption? --and our lack of US oil sources (the Democrats' fault) and the natural disasters and 9/11 --which was followed by war and increased security and intelligence --which has kept us safe.

One might logically blame 9/11 and wars that followed on Clinton's failure to take Osama when one nation offered to hand him over to us.






"God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance and have eternal life."--the Bible

31 comments:

kateb said...

Well said Barb! He's actually confusing Socialism (the midline TO Communism) with sharing toys.

A childish deflection. And one would want to ask, why would someone asking to be the most powerful person in the world need to sink to deflective tactics?

Not a good sign at all.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
mud_rake said...

I see, barbara, that you continue to allow ANONYMOUS COMMENTS even though I explained how to avoid them.

What a hypocrite you are!

You accuse ME of writing anonymous comments yet will not block them.

You are pathetic. No other word can more clearly define you than that!

steve said...

1. Obama was never Ayers friend or confidant, he was asked to be part of a panel that dealt with education issues in Chicago; this panel was created by a prominent Chicago republican. If we follow your logic Barb, that means that ALL teachers who teach at the University of Illinois are terrorist supporters and/or lack judgment because they rub shoulders with Ayers daily.

Read the facts for yourself:
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/he_lied_about_bill_ayers.html

2. From Obama’s web site:

“Barack’s record on Israel is clear: he strongly supports the U.S.-Israel relationship. He believes that our first and incontrovertible commitment in the Middle East must be to the security of Israel, America’s strongest ally in the Middle East.

Barack and Joe Biden believe strongly in Israel’s right to protect its citizens. They have consistently supported foreign assistance to Israel. They have called for continuing U.S. cooperation with Israel in the development of missile defense systems.

Barack has nothing to hide: he has openly described his relationship with Rashid Khalidi:

“[Khalidi] is not one of my advisors; he’s not one of my foreign policy people. His kids went to the Lab school where my kids go as well. He is a respected scholar, although he vehemently disagrees with a lot of Israel’s policy…To pluck out one person who I know and who I’ve had a conversation with who has very different views than 900 of my friends and then to suggest that somehow that shows that maybe I’m not sufficiently pro-Israel, I think, is a very problematic stand to take…So we gotta be careful about guilt by association.”

----------------------------------

My thoughts:
All this guilt by association crap is getting really old and really stupid. It’s like saying the “Bloods” gang member who rides his bike by my house says “Man that dude (me) has a nice car”, that now somehow I’m associated with the deadly Bloods gang.

And then you go on with your racial hatred for anyone with a Muslim heritage. The premise of the last part of your 3rd paragraph is that anyone that has Muslim blood, or a Muslim heritage, is suspect at best, and a terrorist sympathizer at worst. That is extremely racist and xenophobic. I thought you were above that sort of “race baiting”? I think Colin Powell hit the nail on the head. "So what if he were a Muslim?" We don’t have a religious litmus test in our constitution for public office. And if you continue to push that sort of racist xenophobia, you will continue to isolate and fragment the Republican Party, because most level headed Americans do not feel that way. Your words mock what is written on the Statue of Liberty.

3. Rev Wright. Rev Wright grew up during the Jim Crow erra and preaches from that perspective. So I’m willing to cut him some slack. But the things he says are no different than any other evangelical preacher like Pat Robertson, or Falwell. Who regularly say that “God is punishing this “WICKED” nation” by unleashing hurricanes, tornadoes, ect.. Wright’s condemnation is just from a black mans perspective, but no different than what the white preachers are saying.

4. Obama “most liberal” http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/lying_about_being_liberal.html

Bush is the MOST LIBERAL PRESIDENT IN HISTORY, I can give you 750 BILLION REASONS WHY!

5. GITMO. We have to ask ourselves a question, are we a nation of chickenshits or what? Our constitution and our principles say that we are a country of laws and a country of freedom. “Give me liberty or give me DEATH” that means we fight for our ideas and our principles. Gitmo is a place built on a foundation of fear and cowardice and is un American -period. We fought against Gulags and Concentration Camps (which is what Gitmo is) in WW2, and now the fact that this extrajudicial prison camp exists is a MOCKERY of all those WW2 soldiers who fought against such a thing. Shame on you folks if you support Gitmo. Start standing and living like American’s and start saying that we are NOT going to subordinate our ideas just because some cave dwellers flew some planes into a few buildings. Even Nazi’s that we plucked off the battlefields in Europe in WW2 were afforded judicial oversight and rights of hideous corpus and were treated fairly and justly. You can’t say that about the GITMO gulag where just ordinary people were swept up arbitrarily and now have NO JUDICIAL RIGHTS. I’m sorry but that is completely un American.
GITMO is America's black eye to the rest of the world.

Barb said...

why am I a hypocrite for allowing anonymous to post? He makes himself look bad. I tolerate extreme views. I tolerate you! We do think you are Anony--or SS or Microdot --one of you folks who has no understanding of Bible-believers.

But you weren't the only one to think Anony should be deleted --so I'll please the two of you and delete today's comment.

Barb said...

Steve, steve --the word is "habeus corpus" --not "hideous corpus." I wasn't an English teacher for nothing!

GITMO was a country club next to an Afghan prison. I assume we didn't leave the Taliban in prisons there (if that country even had enough secure prisons to hold these terrorists) because there would have been extreme human rights violations, unspeakable cruelties in revenge for Muslim deaths to Muslims. They would have not helped the cause of a free afghanistan. And the prisoners might have gotten out and posed the same threat as before --to their own and to us in our quest for Al Quaeda and bin Ladin.

We did take on more than we could chew by going to the middle east--and yet --we have forced regime change there that the majority of the people wanted and needed --because their regimes were unimaginably cruel, vicious, and unjust. We have opened these 2 nations up to the west and liberty and equality for their women more than ever before. We saw the joyous voting of Iraqis --holding up their inked fingers to show they had voted --over 70 percent of that country. Someday we will look back and see that Geo. Bush was right even though it was not easy or without cost to us and them and highly criticized by the world.

As for Obama and Ayres. What do you expect his website to say?? He's had to throw a lot of old buddies under the bus. You think Ayres gave him a fund-raiser in his living room without approving him? No, he sees Obama as an ideological bed fellow. THESE TWO APPROVE EACH OTHER. OBAMA DID A FAVORABLE BOOK REVIEW OF AYRE'S BOOK ON THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE AND PRISON SYSTEM IN THE U.S. WHICH WAS VERY CRITICAL OF OUR SYSTEM. Of course, I'm sure there are things to criticize in every institution, but Ayres and his wife are unapologetic liberals with radical revolutionary views that would seem extreme to mainstream America. But Obama pleased him --and he pleased Obama.

I don't care how thick or thin their relationship--they HAVE PATTED EACH OTHER ON THE BACK PUBLICALLY IN THE PAST. They were both at Khalidi's farewell party. Why do they even KNOW HIM! this PLO spokesperson and backer. Michelle Obama, by the way, scheduled Ayres and her husband for a panel together. I'm sorry Steve, they are just too much birds of a feather who have flocked together --for my tastes.

AND DON'T YOU PUT YOUR RACIST TAG ON ME; I don't care where they come from or what ethnicity or religion they are. But There IS an anti-Israel mindset among Muslims that threatens Israel's security --as well as ours as their ally. I don't buy the "poor Palestine" mindset of the LEFT. Israel gave them Gaza, emigrated all the Jews from the region, and they moved right up to the new border and attacked Israel --even though Israel gave them what they wanted. PALESTINE SAYS THEY WILL NOT BE HAPPY UNTIL ISRAEL IS NO MORE. IRAN SAID THE SAME. I think that's really the view of way too many Muslims. Even here in the states. That is Khaldi's view --and Obama and Ayres are friends of his --or they wouldn't be at his farewell party.

I'll have to find what Farrakhan said about Obama --as "messiah." If he's thrilled with Obama, what's that say about Obama??? He must know something about him that pleases him. Maybe it's just his color and his Islamic fathers. They do live near one another. It really does scare me when all these revolutionaries, religious or political, are happy with Obama.

I hope he surprises me and turns out to be the best president in the world --"The One"

steve said...

Yeah but Obama is clearly the superior dancer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzyT9-9lUyE

Barb said...

I checked it out and i think your judgement is questionable. Clearly Ms. Palin was the dancer.

kateb said...

Steve - you are not informed, and if you are - you are dishonest.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/08/strangely-timed.html

http://beldar.blogs.com/beldarblog/2008/10/cnn-ayers-and-o.html

http://michellemalkin.com/2008/08/19/help-unlock-the-obamaayers-papers/

It is a very well documented event that Obama held his first campaign kick off in Ayers living room. There can be no argument - and this man and his wife are killers.

Once again you misrepresent someone. At least it isn't Christ this time. How sad that one human can sink so low as you have.

Repent and be saved.

Barb said...

Steve, you and wifey should come to The Truth Project at my house, too! I think you would like the dvds.

Barb said...

Kateb--thanks for researching!

kateb said...

No problem Barb. This was one well documented event.

If one would decide to engage in a political endeavor - it doesn't take a brain surgeon to know that they'd undertake it under their biggest supporters wing.

But there are many lies out there right now. Even in the face of clear evidence to the contrary.

microdot said...

After your comments on my site a few days ago, I decided to see how you were going to homor me with a post that you said I inspred you to write.

I have two comments, One, do not include me in your stupid paranoid fantasies. I have no interest in what you write and participating in this celebration of bigotry and hate.

If someone is posting racist and extremist stuff here, perhaps you are reaping the fruits of your inuendo.

I will say this once and will neve say it again: I am not posting racist hate messages on your site and I resent and am disgusted that you are making that claim.
I cmae here today because of the comments you posted on my site telling me that I inspired you to write something and frankly, it reaffirmed the reasons why I told you months ago to remove my name from your blogroll.

The second point: If you come on my blog again, please bring a bucket of disinfectant to clean up after your self. I had to scrub the comments section down with clorox and hang a few of those pine scented car deodorizers after your last visit.

A bientot!

mud_rake said...

1. I see that you have CHOSEN to continue to allow ANONYMOUS COMMENTS. Don't bitch any more about them and don't accuse me of posting them.

2. I see that you have POLLUTED Microdot's blog in the same way that you pollute mine.

3. You post this article about no Obama, but i have yet to see a post on this blog of why you support McCain. I suspect that it is all just negativity which is your MO.

Barb said...

Microdot, when did I accuse you of making "racist" remarks? Never! That's what YOU do. You're confusing me with you. I recently posted one comment on your lonely blog that became a post here. So?

You and Mudrake do qualify as bigots against bible-believers, pro-lifers, creationists, republicans, right wing-religious, fundamentalists, etc. I've seen enough of your arguments with me to know that we have opposite worldviews on world and U.S. history, truth, faith, social morals and the Bible --AND THAT IT REACHES A LEVEL OF MALEVOLENT HATRED WITH YOU GUYS.

It's not paranoia to say you guys are hateful to me and often to people who agree with me in worldview. It's right here (and elsewhere --wherever I go) in your comments and certainly in Mudly's posts --you accuse yourself with evidence.

I never write anywhere for your interest, Macrodeluded, but for my own interest in shedding a little light in dark corners of the blogosphere.

I don't "B--" about anonymous comments, Mudrake --you are the one who doesn't allow them. I don't mind it when cowards post. Your rage on the issue is , well, frankly, quite NUTS! If ANONY posts things that sound like you, right next to YOUR posts, we will think it's you or one of similar views as you. Sorry, I'm not going to block anonymous posters just because they could be you or people who think as you do. Or even if Anony wants us to think it's you. I guess I might if you go on one of your obsessive crusades and start spamming with nonsensical and/or abusive posts--as you did before on subject of OCD, bird-mating, etc. I've already stated my criteria for deletion and it isn't opposition or disagreement or unpleasant bloggers.

Your goal, seems so often, to make me delete --because you delete and I protest that sort of blog censorship. I guess that's why you call me a hypocrite if I delete after protesting your deletions? I really don't get your MO. It's incomprehensible --kind of insane and of no value --no personal offense, but it is.

You and Micro haven't said anything over here that was worth 2 cents. I'm always open to an exchange of views instead of this inanity.

Macrodeluded and Mudwallower --I know you don't intend to exchange views, so don't waste our time by commenting here until you want to make sense.

I guess you're both just nervouS today --that not enough democrats will heed their mantra,VOTE EARLY--VOTE OFTEN! But I think you'll be pleased; they'll pull it off with the Ohio democratic secretary of state's chaos --and the fact that too many people for Obama don't care how he wins --what with all the illegal foreign donations being ignored by the Obamamedia and the Law. And where is the guy's birth certificate anyway? His Kenyan grandma reportedly said he was born in Kenya, that she was there. What a start! possibly an illegal candidate with illegal funding with illegal voters supporting him with multiple votes. The system has become such a mess that they won't have the time or personnel to guarantee an honest election.

Rob R said...

1. I see that you have CHOSEN to continue to allow ANONYMOUS COMMENTS. Don't bitch any more about them and don't accuse me of posting them.

If you don't want to be accused of posting anonymous comments, then don't post them.

candyly said...

kateb, I take issue with your calling my husband dishonest or at best , ill-informed. He is THE most honest person I know as well as the best informed and most respectful and further he would never make a rash judgement about someone he has never met. He used an unbiased reference to make his point and you come back with name-calling and three blog references? Do you really think that an opinon-based blog is a relevant reference to make a real point?

It is truly sad and disingenious to call oneself a Christian and yet not display the values and kindnesses that a Christian would hold dear. If you knew anything about my husband, or I for that matter, you would realize the grave mistake you have made in attacking my husbands character because of his/our political beliefs. We are Christians so I am not ignorant to ways one should behave toward another human being.

Oh, and Barb, we do have a church we go to and believe it or not it is Methodist and we attend when not working or going to school, which is unfortunately not often enough. Thank you for the offer, however.

Barb said...

Candyly --I thought you and Steve were Unitarian--and he was sound or light tech guy there. We can always use another tech guy. You should visit us once for the experience. Our minister and music are both really good, I think. But we don't want to steal from another flock....If you left the unitarians recently, you might as well keep moving until you get into a really good church--like mine! ; )

Kateb finds Steve's bobblehead Jesus offensive --as do I --as I think his parents would.

Otherwise, i've said here, he's a pretty nice guy in how he disagrees usually --sort of laid back and funny sometimes.

Kate, I suppose Steve "takes some getting used to." Of course he's wrong on stuff --liberal, after all! : )

Barb said...

Did you know, Kateb, that steve was raised by Monclova Baptists --so he has been raised right --and has much better manners than Mudrake and Microdot.

Steve, I believe kateb and Crusader have a monclova connection.

I'm going to try to get the pastor's daughter there to sing for our church some day.

One thing about Pastor Merrin--he is one brave man.

candyly said...

My mother, a former Catholic like the rest of my family, goes to that "church". She volunteered Steve to do sound for awhile to make some extra money while we both try to go to school. Neither of us particularily like it. I will be honest, I just don't. Coincidently, neither of us particularily like his parents chuch either, we are equal opportunity discriminators, I guess. Steve would be upset with me if I gave away all his annonymity but we attend, like I said, whenever possible, a Methodist church in BG headed by my best friend's father, Larry Whatley, yes from WTOL news. He married us almost 8 years ago and started up his church only several years ago.

Steve can defend his Bobble Head reference, but I will say this, one can find Jesus Bobble Heads for sale just about anywhere. Do you believe they wrong as an item or just wrong because he uses it? Like I said, it is his baby to defend.......

kateb said...

Well he wasn't wrong on the election!

I will make a blanket statement and say that anything (even if everybody else is doing it!!! stomps foot) that mocks Jesus Christ is blasphemy and I will always call it out when I see it. And rebuke the mocker. That stands between that person and Christ. Shameful stuff that was. Just shameful.

I chose to school my kids at Monclova. I think the Merrin family is a gift to the community. Pastor Merrin has helped with lost community youth when I have taken them to him and Mrs. Merrin allowed one to come into the school in the middle of the school year. They've spent alot of time on the youth and I just am so grateful to them for the ministry of their church and school.

Some choose to spend their time in service to the Lord. This is one of those families.

steve said...

I'd just like to say that my intention was never to "mock" Jesus, if that is even possible. God and Jesus don't need defending by any mortal man, that's why there's so much strife in the world- because people don't have enough confidence in their flavor and version of the almighty to believe that God can defend himself. My intention was originally to mock the idea that a political party / subculture could claim exclusive ownership of Jesus - as if he were a plaything / political football. I never did much with the blog- as I couldn't bring myself to be as scathing and sarcastic as I am capable of- I didn't want to offend. So I've decided to take the blog down, and furthermore I've decided to limit my participation in political and religious discussions as I've come to realize that nobody is going to change their deep seated views and opinions no matter how effective the argument. I will continue to make comments on specific policy issues because I'm a policy wonk by nature.. I get excited by something as mundane as algae oil, but as far as talking religion anymore, or publicly supporting a candidate, forget it. I was really hurt this morning when somebody I truly respect, a so called Christian referred to Obama as a niggar. that hurt me to my core. Later he tried to egg me on by asking "so now that your guy has one, I bet you are really pleased with yourself?" I'm just done with all this crap. I do a lot of soul searching, and questioning of belief.. somedays I'm agnostic, some days I whole heartedly believe in Jesus, Some days I'm atheistic, I will probably struggle with faith the rest of my life, but I'm human enough to admit that I don't know all the answers and I'm curious to ask questions of simple blind faith. We are all fatally flawed in some way "for ALL have sinned and come short the glory of God".

Barb said...

Larry's name is familiar --wasnt he a TV guy? if you live near BG I imagine his church is a good choice.

But I KNOW my church is a good choice for the preaching and the music -- most of the time. You'd probably come on an off day when I'm at the piano instead of my daughter --that's not always our best foot forward. I feel like we deserve to grow and we are, but slowly.

I like this Truth Project because I do think it is faith-enforcing. You can come to that too!

Blogger Christian Apologist is there, Austen Beeman and Rob R --to name a few. It's not a big intimidating group and we feed you.I'd like Crusader to come --and Kate, though you are probably in a slightly older bracket than these people, they'd welcome you, too --and I would.

I'd love to meet all the bloggers --even Mudly and Microd when he comes to toledo to see his family.

Steve, it's offensive to me that someone would manufacture a "bobblehead Jesus." I know they make those of all the politicians and celebs. But it does seem like a sacriligious item. Notice that I have always listed you on my blog roll as Steve's Blog with Irreverent Title.

I'm afraid to cross a line with the Deity that might seem disrespectful or even blasphemous. So I wouldn't buy a bobblehead Jesus or sell it or feature it in any way --lest it be offensive to Him. It's not important whether it offends me or not.

Maybe if Jesus were to walk through a mall and see this little figurine of himself with the bobble head --maybe he'd laugh! but I'm not sure, so I'd play safe.

Barb said...

ON Larry W --I at first thought you said WPOS --I see you did say WTOL news. How big is his church?

kateb said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
kateb said...

Steve it's good that you are struggling. You're in good company - most of the disciples struggled in their relationships with God and with people on earth. Paul's letters are a good testament to struggles with people and how far afield we can get. Thomas had terrible struggles with his faith.

It's a good thing to struggle with your faith, it's a growing thing. It says that your faith is a work in progress. And anyone who's honest has to say the same thing of their own faith.

I see the world treating Christ in a very poor fashion. He is to be revered. At all times. And I love him so much that to see something like what I saw on your blog is painful.

Barb, thanks for the invitation!

Rob R said...

Steve, I think that's very unfortunate that you won't engage publicly on religion or politics. Even though I disagree with much of what you said, what you said was often evident of someone who actually cares to think through things. We don't need fewer people like that engaging the discussion. We need more. And it goes beyond merely caring for a rational discussion. Steve, I believe you have an authentic share of wisdom and sensitivity that is from God. I don't believe it is complete, but I think it is truly there. If I recall correctly from what you have said about your past, I would say that it led you away from a shallow evangelicalism, but I don't believe that what you have found to replace it goes deep enough.

It galls me to think that you'd quit and someone who doesn't care one iota about a quality rational and respectful discussion even between disagreeing parties like mudrake continues to blog. Why don't you and mudrake trade places? He can give up blogging on politics and religion (and do something more interesting like he almost did once, blogging just on places of religious significance) and you can continue and what a better world it would be (or he could continue to do what he does with better character... he should learn from you).

As for your suggestion that God can't be mocked and so on because he's big enough to defend himself misses an essential point. God loves us more than we can love each other. Because of this, God has invested himself very deeply into what goes on in our life, and because of the thoroughness, depth, and authenticity of his love, God is vulnerable to us. God displayed this vulnerability to us in a most intense way by subjecting himself to a most violent murder. It is the pain like that of humiliation, torture, abandonment and death like that we see on the cross that God feels from our rejection, and yet God's love is so deep that he will come back from it and love us nevertheless and work for our repentence and reconciliation. God desires our reverence, love and praise and he grieves our scorn, disrespect and rebellion. In Exodus 34, God says that his name is El Kannah, that is, his name is Jealous. You question a view that suggests that a certain subculture can claim ownership of Jesus (and I sympathize with what you have said about the political use of Jesus, and I suspect much of it has been dishonerable). But is God who is passionate and Jealous for us that we would be a part of a culture of faith, a specific faith because love and devotion demands specifics.

You mention that people aren't going to change their beliefs but we are often changing, sometimes it is slow and occasionally it is fast. And you have to remember that you can't control that change in others, but of course, you can be willing to change yourself.

As for your shifts between faith and agnosticism, Steve, let me suggest that agnosticism rests on an unprovable modernist assumption (and a dubious one at that) (and when I say it is modernist, that is to highlight that it is dated). That is that faith and knowledge are opposed to each other. When I speak of faith here, I'm speaking of something that is only a part of religious faith (and has been terribly mistaken for the whole thing) Faith here is epistemic risk. It is the risk that what you believe you know can concivably turn out to be false. That doesn't mean that recognizing epistemic faith means you lack confidence but only that you accept something even though there is no exhaustible way to prove it true. The fact is, the last several hundred years of philosophy have amounted to a demonstration that there is no such thing as knowledge without this epistemic risk. FAITH IS FOUNDATIONAL AND NECESSARY TO KNOWLEDGE. For example, logic, which is so essential for coherent thought cannot be proven to apply to our world. We have faith that it does. Surely, there are different degrees of this sort of faith that is required for different sorts of knowledge, and some knowledge has a very low degree of this sort of faith, but it's their nonetheless. And again, this is only a small part of what we call religious faith which is actually more of a relational category than it is an epistemic category.

candyly said...

Yes, Larry Whatley used to do weather on WTOL but now does traffic, I have known them for 18 years and like I said, he married Steve and me. The Whatley's church is still pretty small, on a good week we have 70 or so but usually about 55. We get frequenting BGSU students but they come hither tither. However, we haven't been able to attend much recently as Steve goes to school on Saturday's and Sunday's and up until recently (new job) I worked on Sunday's and they have no evening or Saturday services yet. We don't live in BG, but in South Toledo so it is a haul for us, but worth it. Steve's parents drive farther to get to their church as they live in Lambertville, MI.

Barb said...

I can see that your loyalty probably should lie in BG with Whatley --but if you ever find your self too late to get to his service on time, you might consider us a 2nd option.

AND ALL ARE INVITED TO OUR CHRISTMAS MUSICAL - "JOY, JOY, JOY!" December 19 and 21 --probably 7 pm. We also have a candlelight Christmas Eve service. that is mostly music.

we are collecting the Christmas shoeboxes for the children around the world now -- my husband has my dining room filled with shoe boxes and he loves to buy for them -probably 50 boxes this year. This is a mission of Samaritan's Purse headed by Billy Graham's son. They take these plastic or cardboard shoe boxes filled with little toys, flashlights, toothbrushes, pens, socks, hair barettes, jewelry, etc. --for different ages -- to children all over the world --including where we are at war.

candyly said...

Samaritan's Purse,they are wonderful! We usually do 6 boxes or so a year through them depending on our financial situation at the time. Last year we could only squeeze out two. We get their catalogs and I have been considering giving gifts on behalf of family members through them like sponsoring clean water or bibles and things like that for children and families around the world. Wondered if you have ever done that and how it worked out for you.

Barb said...

Haven't done that particular charitable method --have seen the Catalogues. We do support World Missionary Press and American Bible Society, World Vision, Cherry Street, and some others. I was a child when my family attended the annual World Vision Conference in Winona Lake, IN --also Jewish Evangelism (ministries by Jewish Chrsitians to Jews) --Moody Bible INstitute Week, Youth for Christ. It was a rich childhood to hear such motivational speakers and be challenged about world poverty and world missions and the power of Chrsitian conversion in people's lives. And the music was tops.

To just do a couple of shoeboxes is great --probably will be better quality. My husband gets carried away --and it may not always be quality. I'm afraid someone will choke on the beads he buys for the teen girls to make things with --or think they are candy.

The story of the Widow's Mite, told by Jesus, is significant. She gave the most because she gave all --though her amount of gift was least. Sacrificial giving is laudable --and I think God wants us to pay our bills too.

I have a friend who made a faith pledge to her church for a building fund. She didn't have the money. So she used her bike to get a paper route to pay the pledge. And lost weight in the process --which she needed to do.