Monday, November 3, 2008

BLOGGER TRUCE OFFERED --it will be rejected

Listen, Micrabused, Muckdweller and Uptheflag:

I'm willing to CALL A TRUCE --and agree to blog without any ad hominem attacks --just staying on the issues and articulating views and perceptions --seeking to understand each other and explain myself and some like me --explaining our respective beliefs and fears.

Contrary to what you said, you are NOT called "unAmerican" by me for "expressing your views" --unless you really ARE expressing unamerican views --like when you and Mudrake suggest the religious right should not be heard. MR really seems to not want them to have free speech when it comes to public policy. He can speak from his agnostic and secularist view for public policies; but I can't speak from my religious views.

Actually, all views can be said to be American except one that DENIES freedom of speech --and that is happening to Christians already and has been a battle waged by the ACLU for at least 3 decades. Most recently, a black man signed up to open the town council meetings with prayer --as the members took turns --but he was challenged by the ACLU that he could not pray "in Jesus name." A three-judge panel agreed with the ACLU --prohibiting this fellow's Constitutional right of free speech and freedom of religious expression. Now THAT is UNAMERICAN! This case is headed to the Supreme Court. NOte that prayer was not disallowed in this case, just prayer "in Jesus' name." That's discrimination!

Also, one of the military academies has a tradition of chaplain-led prayer before lunch--by chaplains of different faiths --and the ACLU is challenging that --wanting to end a tradition that lends dignity to the lunch hour. They just want our military officers to chow down without any gratitude --never mind that all the people could pray their own way or ignore the prayer by thinking pleasant thoughts instead.

I've been seeing here that people who don't support Obama are called racists. I am not a racist. I love my 10 black CLC'ers and I think they are somewhat fond of me. I don't find them a bit inferior to my 8 white students in any way. The more I get to know my black students, the more optimism I have about their futures --same as for the non-black students. They are bright and beautiful kids and seem to grow more reverent about Christ, prayer and the Bible. I'm sure you would call it racist stereotyping, but I also think my black students are pretty good singers as a group.
If I were racist I would not have the non-condescending love for them that I do have. Typically, you'll come back and say I AM condescending --but I am not. You commit libel when you say that about me.

You've not heard ME carry on about Barack's middle name. I just hope he doesn't share all the views of the anti-Capitalist, anti-free enterprise, revolution-oriented liberal friends who seem to say in their speeches and writings, "America's system and western values are bad," which men received Obama's friendship and praises through the year --as in a dinner for Khalidi attended by both Ayres and Obama --and Obama's book review for Ayers. And I understand that Farrakhan did refer to Obama as a "messiah" at some recent high holy day for black (or all) Muslims.

You will either agree with these praises of and by Obama, or say these things aren't true, but the evidences are out there.

Nothing will please me more than to find out Obama is more middle of the road, and more appreciative of america, and the traditional aspects of its civil rights and foreign policy views and more tolerant of Israel, more peace loving and less radical than HIS Chicago neighbors have shown themselves to be.

but I know he's far left on abortion and i cannot support that--his votes against BAIPA 4 times. and his promise to sign FOCA, nullifying all the pro-life gains of the past 3 decades.

About persecuting the Christians, Microdot, I DO get persecuted verbally by you and Mudly. Instead of staying on topic, you delete, call me ignorant, mentally ill,etc. Mudrake definitely gets so mad his cyber-eyeballs bulge --I fear for his health!

Yes, as the blogger Microdot alleged, we of the GOP have already begun to question Obama's legitimacy because the stories are out there --about his birth certificate being suspicious, about his illegal overseas campaign donations, about the massive ACORN fraud in voter registrations--that will take so long to unsnarl that we can't possibly figure it out before January to see if any of the voters are fraudulent. We hear of an African half- brother in poverty with whom he doesn't share his wealth (but maybe he tries to help him and we just haven't heard about it --I really don't expect him to bring a half-brother to the U.S. to live with him --or be supported by him --until Barack's a millionaire himself --or to rescue his illegal alien aunt from poverty --or to take the whole family to see Grandma ("a typical white woman" he called her) before she dies --or to stay with her more than an hour during campaign season --or to spread the campaign wealth with McCain. But he is in a glass house throwing stones when it comes to his criticisms of the rich and their alleged tax cuts --saying they should "spread the wealth," implying he is so compassion-minded and generous in his ideals.

You said that no matter what he does, we will question his legitimacy. Actually, what he does and whom he appoints to courts will be more important than anything else to my opinion of him as president.

I fear that Barack wants a NEW American economic system --a more socialistic one --because those are the views he has expressed --as in his speech to Berlin -about tearing walls down between rich nations and poor. What does he mean?? it sounds nice on the surface, but what did Marxist leaders say and promise? Marx's idea was "the dictatorship of the proletariat" --and violent overthrow has too often been the method of the atheistic left for accomplishing all this "social and economic change" to help the poor.

I'm all for helping the poor --no one did more of it than Bush, continuing the entitlement programs --and EITC and sending out the stimulus checks. Yet, he did try to get Medicare in line and made a lot of seniors pay more for meds, I believe. Something has to be done.

Any belt-tightening in the area of entitlements will be resisted by all. Our best bet to maintain entitlements is to REALLY encourage economic expansion, energy independence, incentives for companies to stay (not punishments for leaving and dissolving.) If we don't want more companies to bankrupt, we need to help industry and business thrive --and THEN give incentives to them to provide benefits for their workers. Let's get up and running first before we try to create utopia by taxation and new entitlements. It's impossible now, for the American union wage earner to compete with the world's products. I offer no solution for that problem. However, we do need ethics at every level of production --curbing excessive corporate benefits at the expense of labor --and curbing any bad attitudes (and thuggery) of union workers --like the auto workers when their products were found to be more shoddy than Japan's --at greater cost.

It IS class warfare akin to Bolshevik rhetoric to talk about "tax cuts for the rich" as something unfair and evil --when the rich are already carrying the nation tremendously on their backs and providing all the jobs.

Change such as Obama talks about sounds like revolution--of the type that denies free choice, kills incentive to get ahead, blames the rich for the needs of the poor.

We don't need a world leader who stirs up violent passions of the masses against the job-creators and the wealthy of the world. We do need to help the masses who are suffering under Hussain, Al Quaeda or Taliban, however --and those who declare death to us or their neighbors who are our allies.

That you see Obama as better than I do, that's obvious--and so be it.
We'll find out, I guess.

But my concerns about him are not as follows: I don't think he's Muslim; I don't think he's a Communist; but I do suspect he is not favorable to our capitalist, free enterprise, western systems. I think he's a BIg Brother and Big Gov't. man --and I do think he's very liberal in all ways --and very inexperienced in any practical WORK or administration.

BUT --IF HE WINS --he will have my prayers and hopes for the best --not vitriol and hatred. I just hope he doesn't give us all reason to regret electing him. I hope America doesn't let him change our liberties --or socially liberalize our culture --such that we cease to be a wholesome and good nation as described by de Toqueville who said "America is great because she is good." He correctly identified "the secret of our greatness" as our "churches, with pulpits aflame with righteousness."

Protestant Christianity in America was unique among religions --for preaching in the language of the people --for minimizing the value of ritual while maximizing the need for holiness in our lives --ever challenging us --such that, together with people in England, we outlawed slavery in the 1800's --though slavery was entrenched all over the world throughout world history as a given feature of national economies. It was just taken for granted. It was the Christian reformers who fought to abolish this evil---just as they fight today to abolish abortion and experimentation on unique, tiny people --our babies in their earliest stage of development.

"God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance and have eternal life."--the Bible


Barb said...

I should clarify --that case about the man who was praying in Jesus name; I'm not absolutely sure it was the ACLU who brought suit --but it usually is. The council may have objected to Jesus in the prayer --and the ACLU may be paying to defend the town. IN any case, one of the conservative legal groups is trying to take this case to the Supreme Court and defending the man's right to pray any way he wishes.

I personally would advise Christians to feel that it is OK to NOT pray in Jesus' name and make prayers more religiously generic--since He gave us the Lord's Prayer as an example of prayer --and it does not conclude with "In Jesus' Name." We have another scripture reference that does tell us that whatever we ask in Jesus' name will be done for us--so we protestants often close a prayer with that phrase, "In Jesus' name" or some variant thereof.

I believe this gentleman should be free to pray any way he wishes --this is chilling to hear of the ACLU's constant objection to religious traditions and expression in our country. Haven't they anything better to do with their money??? It will probably result in the end of prayer at the council meetings--a shame because such prayers remind people to be accountable for their thoughts, actions, words --whether or not all believe in God is beside the point. Opening with prayer reminds legislators and courts of noble aspirations and ideals of goodness, honor, honesty, and integrity --and even holy boldness! to do what is right against pressures to conform or kowtow.

Some Christians believe prayer doesn't affect God but affects us --makes US better. In case of public prayers, I think there is some truth in that for the majority of believers who would be in earshot of the prayer and paying attention to it. I believe non-believers should at least tolerate the faith of the majority in public settings when prayers are offered. It makes for a dignified start to an event, to seek God's blessing on all present.

steve said...

^ a lot of good points, but this might help explain a few things:

Barb said...

Interesting video--is he supposed to be talking to God? or person?
I didn't get the connection here.

Or, you are sayiing to me, "Never gonna let you down--never gonna lie!"

Well, that's good! although it's not an explanation of things it?

Don't feel bad. My husband reads his cartoons to me --and I say, "I don't get it."

crusader09 said...

Barb, loosely related (election-type news) is this:

Did you hear that the Toledo PD are preparing for riots? It was on nbc and then Glenn Beck talked about it on his show today... and then NBC in Toledo released the internal memo... What has all this come to? Are we really so polarized that, if someone's candidate doesn't win, they're going to RIOT?

Barb said...

IT'S NOT NEW,Crusader --that some elements of the population have rioted if something didn't go their way. I hope the police are wrong --but always good to be prepared. There were LA riots and NYC riots in the last 50 years --I don't even remember why --google "WATTS, LA, California" and see what you get. sometimes all it took was a black-out of electricity and mobs broke into stores and ran off with the merchandise. Sometimes there have been riots over court decisions --say if a white jury had found O.J. guilty.

This year, it would only happen if Obama lost. I expect him to win. Christians were caught snoozing at the wheel on this election--we just are too busy to go out and tell other people how to vote. We figure it's futile, too --in the face of Obamamania --and Obamamedia.

crusader09 said...

I heard an interesting comment today. I will preface by saying that I am not racist or sexist, I don't make generalizations based on race or gender (other than from personal experiences) and I don't think one's race or gender should have anything to do with their ability to lead this country. But, when talking about the riots by Obama supporters of they don't win today, someone said:

"If they [the democrats and African Americans] do that [if they riot because their candidate did not win], they will prove every racist who ever lived right."

I think it is sad and ridiculous that any population would riot based on the outcome of a democratic election. Even if there were something fundamentally wrong with the way the election were conducted (if it were biased or rigged, for instance) I would never participate in rioting...

But I guess that's what this country is about, huh?

Barb said...

about rioting? I hope not!

I agree, it would take a lot to make me riot. Even if I think the election is stolen by fraud, I'll not be rioting.

I don't know if it really would prove racist sentiments if the afr. americans riot about this election--considering what our students do after some football games. They have turned over cars and taken down the goal posts. Those weren't afr. am. students, i hope. And they were the victors, I think.

We may see some hoopla in the streets if he wins. Joy out of control. I understand that it is a great thing to them after the years of negative stigma, since slavery and segregation.

candyly said...

~~~~"Christians were caught snoozing at the wheel on this election--we just are too busy to go out and tell other people how to vote."~~~~

Why should Christians TELL others how to vote? Do Christians not believe in freedom of choice or do they just think the rest of the country is ignorant?

crusader09 said...

candyly, that was just a ridiculous statement. Thought someone should tell you that you sound like a moron when you make wild inferences like this...

Barb, I think the rest of us get what you meant by "tell people how to vote."

kateb said...

Yes it was very clear what your comment meant Barb. I think it's strange that this particular poster only seems to post when she thinks she's got a 'gotcha' for Barb.

Some personal connection possibly?

Barb said...

Candyly asks, "Why should Christians TELL others how to vote? Do Christians not believe in freedom of choice or do they just think the rest of the country is ignorant?"

They don't tell others how to vote on a door to door basis usually--they know it's typically futile --though I did my blog best for the cause!

But what are the dems doing going door to door for Obama? that's what I'm talking about. Republicans and Christians don't go door to door for their man as was being done here. We don't go out and try to find and register new voters who will vote for our guy. That's OK, but we don't do it, didn't marshall a huge army of ACORN registrars and new voters and so we can expect to be out-voted.

The dems go to every nursing home and institution for the retarded and glean every vote they can. We do not. Nursing home personnel have told my husband they have seen some sneaky shenanigans by democrats seeking absentee ballots for nursing home folks--and helping them vote. Only their families should be able to do that -- and residents in their right minds should be given opportunity to vote --but not be manipulated as some nursing home personnel allege has happened.

candyly said...

I am not going to pretend that my feelings weren't hurt by the bitterness and meanness displayed toward me but I will post nonetheless....and I was being sarcastic. At any rate, kateb, I only post periodically because I work full-time, go to school almost full-time and still try to maintain my home, my friendships and my family as well as try to volunteer with the Mobile Meals and Cherry St. Mission, which I haven't done as much lately. Can you say the same, kateb? Also, you must have felt there was some merit to my supposed "gotcha" comment or you would not have brought it up. Secondly, crusader, I am not a moron nor am I stupid. I was in the top 10 of my graduating class of 342, I play 3 instruments proficiently and several others I fiddle around with, I was National Honor Society, aced my SAT's and can nearly speak Japanese as well as write it. If you would like to know more, ask, don't assume to know me. Thirdly, and more to the point, all political groups go door to door and call and solicit at Wal-Mart and nursing homes. I worked in a nursing home, I promise, BOTH major political parties called my residents on the phone and solicted to them in person, and mailed them letters and neither party stood out as any more rude or obnoxious as the other. Not only that, but at home we Steve and I avoided several McCain pushers AND Obama pushers (we had a sign in our yard, go figure) that would come to our door. One can tell by the paraphenalia left behind. Is it really wrong for any party or group to try to solicit votes door to door? We are inundated with hundreds of television and radio ads everyday for months and flyers in the mail and messages in our in-boxes. I would think that the person to person contact one would receive from a supporter would be far more effective and pleasant, myself. We have had actual local candidates come to our door themselves, of both parties, and I have found them to be at their best(when not hiding from them) and have been very taken by several candidates that I may have never considered before. It is just how it is. You can't fault Obama for his amazing grassroots effort. Agree or disagree with him he ran an amazing campaign. Even a non-supporter of Obama should be able to see the beauty of democracy in action. Heck, Churchs come to our door year 'round solicting for their flocks. Jehovah's Witnesses, almost monthly if not more. It is what it is, but I certainly don't feel that as a general rule they are telling people who to vote for. If I had saved them all I could exhibit dozens of emails from Obama, the democrats, etc., that I received this election cycle that clearly said, Get out and vote, whether you vote for our candidate or not. That was my point. If the Evangelicals came to my door for a candidate, I wouldn't discriminate, I would probably hide from them too ;) P.S. Both my mother and sister work for the county with the Board of Mental Retardation and they are not allowed, by law, to be solicited for anything and they are not. If I am to be accused of being a "moron" again, I assume you were being curt with your inclusion of that comment, but on the off chance you weren't I want to assure you that no "retarded" person was able to be persuaded to vote for Barack Obama.

candyly said...

When I mentioned being sarcastic, I was referring to my much abhorred prior post, not to my feelings being hurt, because they were.

kateb said...

candyly - I am honored by the services I am able to provide for the Lord, to be His hands and feet on the earth.

I do not use them to prop myself up when I find myself in a position where I've behaved badly - to fly a flag and say well, I may be wrong and poorly intended here - but look, let me wave the humanitarian things I have engaged in as a counter balance.

We are told that when we pray and engage in works, we should do them quietly and not go about bragging about them. I don't tell the things that I do for people simply because I do them to honor God and my Savior. Not myself.

Barb said...

Girls, Girls --I am delighted to have you both in my living room so let us all bury the hatchett and forgive our mutual obnoxiousnesses all around! You did get us going, however, candyly --suggesting Chrsitians should not tell others how to vote.

I'm glad to hear if GOP got out door to door --I think we aren't the type. Just like it isn't typical of GOP to participate in mass hysteria for a candidate --except maybe Pentecostals among us --I think we are a reserved, inhibited people. harder to whip up into a joyous adoring frenzy over a candidate --or elvis, in my case --though I sure could've gotten excited over the Palins. such a cool family, I think --that little girl slicking down the baby's hair! And that unusual husband --so secure in his own identity that he could play the role of the "campaign spouse" so happily.

But, did you notice, the McCains and the Palins weren't into a lot of Public Display of Affection toward their spouses? Democrats are typically gah gah in public. We're reserved people, I tell ya! You betcha!

As for the retarded, I had a friend who worked at the epilepsy center (not necessarily retarded --but disabled enough to need a group home) and when the van got back after voting, one of the residents said, "But I wanted to vote for Bush!" inference was that someone helped him vote for Kerry instead.

Barb said...

Say, Candyly --again you with your 3 instruments --what are they? --should visit my church. We are open to all people and musicians. We are getting a number of young couples.

all of you are welcome.

Barb said...

Candyly, You haven't begun to have your feelings assaulted until you hang out at Mudrake's as a conservative christian. He just closed down all his comments because Jeanette and I posted there --and we weren't nasty --post election stuff --Jeanette was especially gracious

But microdot called me "the Big Babe" and I said if he continued to call me that, I would have to refer to him as "that scrawny ol' dude."

Mudrake couldn't stand the banter - and shut down everything --blaming me and Jeanette.

He's in bad shape.

Barb said...

Also, some young man I know, former roommate of my son's, just insulted me royally on his facebook blog where he is justifying why he voted for a 3rd party candidate.

We just don't express opinions in Blogville without making somebody mad or insulting.

So we need thick skins.

Antipelagian said...

Also, some young man I know, former roommate of my son's, just insulted me royally on his facebook blog where he is justifying why he voted for a 3rd party candidate.

as I said there, I will say here: I did not "insult" you. I did correct you, and I did not do it in such a way as to demean your intelligence nor as an attack.

It seems we will disagree on a great many things and agree on a great many things...even when we agree we come to these conclusions differently...but I will always hold you and your family with warm affection. Please keep that in mind as you read my comments.

Barb said...

OK --but I was insulted by what you perceived as truth that I did not perceive as truth --about me --it's insulting for you to say that I hold my view above God's. wouldn't you feel insulted if I said that to you??? and called it the truth and therefore not an insult?

Warm regards to you and yourin, too, ; )

Barb said...

I wrote about it to comfort candyly who felt insulted here. I wanted her to know she hadn't BEGUN to be insulted until she blogged in my shoes.

Antipelagian said...

it's insulting for you to say that I hold my view above God's.

I explained why I came to that conclusion. I can't tell you how you should feel about receiving that criticism...I know I wouldn't feel particularly sun-shiney if I had been on the receiving end...but I am on the receiving end of many criticisms...with other believers it usually centers around me being accused of being an abusive male trying to dominate women.

I know how I would respond if someone said I placed myself above God's authority on a particular point...I'd weigh my words with God's.

I also don't want to make it sound as if you have the plank and I'm without any myself...we all consider ourselves gods at certain points...that is in our sin nature. Sometimes it's morally obvious...other times it's a presupposition so ingrained in our thinking we haven't considered it in light of God's Word.

candyly said...

Thanks for your kind words, Barb. I know you have quite a written history with those other bloggers. BTW, I play clarinet, saxophone and flute.

Barb said...

You could play clarinet duet with our pastor's wife who graduated at BGSU with major in that instrument--she gives private lessons in the schools. She's probably in her upper 20's. And my daughter the music teacher plays flute well but rarely--didn't start until college when she joined a flute ensemble at the conservatory of music. All my kids played trumpet for AWHS.

But I'm the only one who gets out my trumpet for Christmas and Easter --and it is a genuine miracle that I can play pretty good without practicing between holidays! I don't last long--but I can turn red and pucker up and bring the walls of jerico down with the best of 'em! on a descant on "Joy to the World," e.g.

we have a sax guy who plays with the worship team --and is taking jazz lessons with the leading jazz guy here in the city -- I love the embellishments he adds to the worship music --an older gentleman (the pastor's father in law actually--father of the clarinet player.) He plays soprano and alto sax --maybe tenor, also. They are a wonderful musical family; our drummer is self-taught, their son.

We are preparing our annual Christmas musical ---with choreographed children's choir and secular entertaining elements about the holiday--before we get to the real reason for the season with a nativity scene and the angels, shepherds, wisemen and so on. It's usually a pretty fine program --especially considering our size of church. We have at least 5 electing to sing with us from other churches this year.

All my kids studied voice and got their vocal talent from their father --and I had the piano and trumpet ability. Actually, my father was also in a college choir and quartet, so there are vocal genes from both sides. So music is big with us --though the sons never want to practice.

I always believed if they were more ambitious for it and if we had any knowhow for it, they could have been famous and made money with their singing. I think they are that good. (Just being objective, heh heh. --but really, when I hear what's on Jay Leno or even Christian radio, i think my kids are competitive.) But they are all more modest about it than I am for them.