It would indeed be futile to shake my fist at or hate something like your God since it doesn't exist.
What I've done is pose some very basic logical and moral questions about your beliefs which, in my opinion, have largely been avoided.
October 23, 2009 11:59 PM
Blogger Barb said...
Actually, the human body is a perfectly wonderful design --except for genetic mutations, defects, diseases --explained by The Fall.
the way pain signals that we are sitting on a tack --so we can stop doing it! The way our body heals. The stuff that skin is made of --the nails to help protect the ends of our toes and fingers -- The way of conceiving, growing and feeding a baby. The laminem molecule that holds our cells together (shaped like teensy tinesy crosses.) The heart that beats and pumps tirelessly --the brain and all its functions --the pleasure receptors --the emotional capacity
we are "fearfully and wonderfully made" and a scientist could tell us better.
And DNA is a 6 foot strand of language made of 4 building blocks or "letters" determining all our characteristics --which strand is found inside every cell of our body
All very awe-inspiring --and very much DESIGNED, not random accidental evolution arising from natural selection--which does occur within "kinds" and is interesting in itself, but cannot account for all the diversity and marvels in life.
Ours is not a perfect earth or perfect physique --because of the fall. But what we have is still VERY good at its best-- as the Creator pronounced it to be. And yes, baby teeth are part of a plan to accommodate growth from infancy to adulthood.
No happenstance to our existance. So whether you think a GOD is behind us or not --some intelligent creative entity surely is. And I think the Bible is a wonderful book accounting for the who and why behind our being.
October 24, 2009 9:57 AM
Blogger Barb said...
I can't explain the mysteries to you --the why of evil --death as a punishment from a loving God. But He is perhaps not loving in the sentimental human way except in Christ --He loves Christ and has given charge of us to His Son. We don't know how wide God's grace will extend to unbelievers and sinners--but we are told that the sure way to avail ourselves of this sacrificial love and eternal life is to BELIEVE in the SON and be remorseful for sin.
I just believe with all my being that Jesus Christ rose from the grave after 3 days and promised that He was preparing a place for us --that faith in Him is the gateway --that God sent Him to redeem humanity and give us the immortality that God planned for us in the first place.
I read the story of Paul's conversion and see how he changed. I read the story of the healing of the lame man in Jerusalem --when they went back and confronted the Jews with Jesus' resurrection and their witness of that miracle. The story of the raising of lazarus. I believe it all!!! And it is the best news in the whole world --and it is life-changing news. There is a Baptism of love through the Holy Spirit --a life change the believer can experience.
It's all mysterious --but not foolishness --Biblical Christianity is the best guide for life the world has yet seen. And our ONLY real hope of immortality.
October 24, 2009 10:11 AM
"God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance and have eternal life."--the Bible
31 comments:
I invite readers to consult the original source of my comments and your responses in the "Ardi" post. I will leave it to them to evaluate the veracity of my criticisms and how you addressed them.
Overall, your defense strikes me as one of an enabler, not of an abusive spouse or addict, but of a capricious and malevolent deity. You believe that your God is perfectly just and merciful and wise but admit He has designed the human body with many imperfections. Indeed, the world is brimming with flaws, of pain and suffering and death often inflicted by creatures designed by the same God. But instead of blaming your God, you blame the victim: humanity. The human race and everything in the universe are cursed because the first man and woman were deceived by a talking snake and ate a magical fruit that gave them the knowledge of good and evil. (Why wouldn't God want them to know the difference between good and evil, anyway?) Your God could have then simply forgiven them, but no; the only way He could be appeased was to make a scapegoat of His own Son in one of the most diabolical forms of execution ever devised.
Believe it if you must, but I am grateful to know there is no reason to think any of it is true.
No, I don't think the body has imperfections in its ideal created state. But because of the fall we do age and die and malfunction --and I accept by faith the reason we've been given for that. I once said I might tweak the body's design if I could, but I'm not the omniscient or omnipotent creator to have any potential to do that --nor to understand that the body is all the ways it is for reasons beyond my thinking and experience. Nor would my tweaked designs necessarily work out to be improvements!!! The ideas I have are sort of silly, actually.
If the reason for our mortality is true, then how are you helping yourself to inherit eternal life by disbelieving it? And in the short run, how does it make you happier to believe this life is all there is?
There is no name given under Heaven by which we can be saved, except that of Jesus Christ! I have great comfort and hope in Christ's resurrection and promises to us that "Because I live, you shall live also."
I don't understand the role of knowledge of good and evil --except that pure INNOCENcE does not know evil --nor think it --nor realize it exists--as with a baby.
I used to think about the "whys" --why death? why sin in the world? why a choice to obey or disobey? And of course we conclude that God didn't make nor want puppets --a baby is not a puppet in its innocence --but the older child has to learn obedience because there ARE choices. And we teach obedience in part with consequences --as well as reasons and the cultivation of a love for righteousness. And the better the relationship and the teaching of the child by the parent, the sweeter that relationship --and that child.
So the Bible tells us to "get wisdom" "study to be approved of both God and man." "Learn of me." "Seek and ye shall find."
Say, AndThenSome --any chance we are related to each other? Other than by our monkey's uncle, that is.
I think you are the California blogger from Lancaster on my site meter. I have 3 relatives out there! And you have always been a polite blogger --rather than an angry one.
If the reason for our mortality [Original Sin] is true, then how are you helping yourself to inherit eternal life by disbelieving it? And in the short run, how does it make you happier to believe this life is all there is?
Well, first of all, I don't believe in things simply because they make me happy or I'd like them to be true. Our emotions have no bearing on reality whatsoever; no matter how we feel about it, the Earth revolves around the sun, light travels at 186 thousand miles per second, and one day every last one of us will die.
I've simply examined the arguments and so-called evidence for eternal life and gods and the supernatural and concluded they are false. It would be comforting to think that I might go on to a better place after I die, to be free from the injustices and suffering of this world, and to be with those I love forever and ever; in spite of the emotional benefits, however, I don't think such things are true.
This doesn't mean that I'm unhappy, of course; on the contrary, it makes me truly cherish the many joys and rewards of this life and all the people I love and who love me. I have only one brief existence, and I don't want to squander it on faith or religion or other such nonsense.
I am indeed in Lancaster, but I really couldn't say if we are related without knowing more about your relatives out here. If you have access to my e-mail information, which I think you might, you're welcome to send me the names of your relatives and I can tell you if I know them. I rather doubt it, but I could be wrong.
And I appreciate your civility, too, despite our obvious disagreements.
I don't have access to your email - I can just check the general locale of bloggers --those who upload pages --such as today.
If you were my relative, you would know it and would visit my blog because of my cousin, to whom I occasionally send a page --like when I write about my mom or family doings. If she has ever commented here, or if she follows my blog, I'm not aware. She does have 2 sons whom she could tell about my blog. But none has expressed an interest that I know of --nor come here anonymously that I know of. I'm not sure where the sons live exactly, either.
so it was a guess --that maybe a CA relative visits my blog. I actually have quite a few CA bloggers who drop in now and then and have wondered if any of them were the cousins.
I responded to your previous comment and lost it. I'll try again tomorrow.
You really want to blame disease and pestilence on the Fall? You do understand that all those millions of viruses and bacteria and parasites were designed by God, too, not just flowers and kittens and rainbows and all the other pleasant things believers like to praise Him for. Ebola. Bubonic plague. Malaria. Small pox. Cancer. AIDS. Ticks. Lice. Mosquitos. Leeches. All conceived and willed into existence by your loving God. And for what? Because Adam and Eve disobeyed Him and ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. How can this one act of defiance warrant such an extreme response? Imagine what we would think of a parent who refuses to forgive his children for a minor infraction and curses them with pain and suffering and torment. We wouldn’t hesitate for a moment to have such a parent locked up and have his children removed from him forever. And what possible reason would God not want His creation to know the difference between good and evil in the first place? How you or anyone else would want to spend eternity with this sadistic monster is beyond me.
Actually all those bacteria and viruses existed before the fall. That is why humans had access to the tree of life, in order to cure ourselves of these things so that they dont effect us. As for knowledge of good and evil. There was no evil before mankind rebelled against its maker. That was the first instance of evil in the physical world. It is through the corruption of man, who God set in authority over the earth, that the rest of the earth became corrupt. That is the biblical answer for why evil exists.
How do you explain the existence of evil from your worldview?
I got some kind of flu bug --101 temp last night and I'm on Tamiflu, so not apparently about to die. So that's why my promised response is later than intended.
To AndThenSome: I understand that you can't simply believe in "Pie in the Sky, By and By" because you WANT to or because it would be comforting when faced with the fact of death of loved ones or yourself. But it is the only comfort with any validity behind it at all. "Living in one's memories" is pretty cold comfort, I think.
I find that the scriptures read like history--especially the Gospels. Many writers and historical characters make up the Bible --and Isaiah 53 in the old Testament predicts a suffering servant as Christ would be--who is wounded for our transgressions, the lamb of God.
I was raised to believe --and when I went through an adolescent doubting phase, I was depressed about it --but listened to a college prof, a believer giving us reasons for faith and confidence in the historicity of the Bible --and later, in a position of service, I encountered Christ in a life-changing way. It was a baptism of His love --not whipped up in some emotional frenzy at a pentecostal service with music and a shoutin' preacher --though that may bring conversion to some --but this was quiet and sure and overwhelming.
As you might expect, I do not agree that a joyful life of faith and service is a life squandered.
The Bible tells us that the evidence of God is in what He has made. That we are without excuse if we don't see that we are fearfully and wonderfully "made." If we don't see the LOVE behind all the colors of our planet --and the fact that we have eyes to see the colors! Why do we have eyes at all? Why should we have anything about our bodies at all --if not for a loving designer?
You think naturalistic evolution can produce all this diversity and beauty of life --and our capacity to sense and thrill at the beauty? that is just way too much to swallow!! Takes more faith for me to believe in the marvels of evolution without God than to believe in the Bible!
Granted, even some Christian people think evolution is just proven as God's method. But it still is not really proven. It's highly speculative. Similarities in ancient extinct creatures to modern day creatures doesn't prove their case. They are conjecturing based on similarities. A designer in common can account for the similarities.
The Bible says of those who didn't remain faithful in belief to God, "Professing themselves to be wise, they became as fools" "worshipping the creature instead of the Creator."
And so that is what evolution looks like to me. The cartoonist, Johnny Hart, in his B.C. comic drew a picture of an idol made up of all sorts of creatures stacked on top of each other. That's what we've done in believing in naturalistic evolution without God.
Christian Apologist wrote:
Actually all those bacteria and viruses existed before the fall.
My response:
I’m not sure you fully appreciate the implications of this assertion. Along with the countless varieties of viruses, bacteria, fungi, mold, worms, arthropods, protozoa and insects that cause sickness and death in both humans and other animals, many diseases and parasites can only exist in the human body, including certain malarial parasites and tapeworms, hookworm, head, body, and pubic lice, polio, smallpox, measles, pneumonia, leprosy, tuberculosis, shingles, hepatitis and AIDS, not to mention HPV, Chlamydia, trichomoniasis, gonorrhea, and syphilis. It’s difficult to imagine Adam and Eve surviving very long wracked with these afflictions, and even more difficult to imagine a God who would create and pronounce such things “very good.”
That is why humans had access to the tree of life, in order to cure ourselves of these things so that they dont effect us.
I seem to recall that Adam and Eve were cast out of Eden before they could have access to the Tree of Life. But even if they did have access, what was the point of creating all those diseases and parasites in the first place if they were going to be “cured” by the Tree of Life later?
As for knowledge of good and evil. There was no evil before mankind rebelled against its maker. That was the first instance of evil in the physical world. It is through the corruption of man, who God set in authority over the earth, that the rest of the earth became corrupt. That is the biblical answer for why evil exists.
This is surely a diabolical doctrine. “Mankind” didn’t rebel against its maker; two individuals who had no concept of good and evil or death did. Their maker could have simply forgiven them, instructed them, nurtured them, guided them to understand right from wrong, but instead, in an act of supreme injustice and cruelty, cursed them, their descendents, and all living things. To worship this being as a “Heavenly Father” is an insult to even the worst fathers of this world.
How do you explain the existence of evil from your worldview?
Natural disasters like earthquakes, hurricanes, floods, fires, tsunamis and volcanic eruptions are due to the fact we live on a planet with a various chemical reactions, a dynamic atmosphere, and a crust of multiple, interacting plates—they are not the judgment of a divine being. The diseases and parasites I listed earlier have evolved a particular way to survive and reproduce, which just happens to be to our detriment—again, they are not a punishment from a god.
The evil caused by people doesn’t require a supernatural explanation, either; people choose, all too often, unfortunately, to do things which harm others.
Barb writes:
I understand that you can't simply believe in "Pie in the Sky, By and By" because you WANT to or because it would be comforting when faced with the fact of death of loved ones or yourself. But it is the only comfort with any validity behind it at all. "Living in one's memories" is pretty cold comfort, I think.
My response:
I’m not exactly sure what you mean by “living in one’s memories,” but again, comfort, cold or not, has no bearing on the truth of an assertion.
...and later, in a position of service, I encountered Christ in a life-changing way. It was a baptism of His love --not whipped up in some emotional frenzy at a pentecostal service with music and a shoutin' preacher --though that may bring conversion to some --but this was quiet and sure and overwhelming.
I have no reason to doubt you had a religious experience; millions of believers from various faiths have. While I can’t disprove it was an encounter with Jesus, I think it’s far more likely to have a natural, physiological explanation.
As you might expect, I do not agree that a joyful life of faith and service is a life squandered.
Personally, I prefer the truth, however depressing it may be, to blissful ignorance.
Before anything else, I should say I'm sorry to hear you were ill, and glad to know you're now feeling better.
The Bible tells us that the evidence of God is in what He has made. That we are without excuse if we don't see that we are fearfully and wonderfully "made." If we don't see the LOVE behind all the colors of our planet --and the fact that we have eyes to see the colors! Why do we have eyes at all? Why should we have anything about our bodies at all --if not for a loving designer?
First of all, I don’t consider the Bible any kind of authority in this matter, so to continue to reference it does little to bolster your argument, at least as far as I’m concerned. Second, eyes and the ability to see colors with those eyes are mutations that have been selected by the environment because they offer a survival advantage. No “loving designer” is necessary.
The Bible says of those who didn't remain faithful in belief to God, "Professing themselves to be wise, they became as fools" "worshipping the creature instead of the Creator."
And so that is what evolution looks like to me. The cartoonist, Johnny Hart, in his B.C. comic drew a picture of an idol made up of all sorts of creatures stacked on top of each other. That's what we've done in believing in naturalistic evolution without God.
Evolution by natural selection is the best scientific explanation for the variety, distribution, and relationship of living things on our planet. Far be it from me to challenge the opinion of a cartoonist, but naturalistic evolution does not imply the worship of Darwin, science, humanity or any other animal.
Andthensome--imagine a planet with nothing on it. Somehow, through natural processes, life in all its diversity and marvelousness will just happen --without any design or controller? Mutation and survival need can't account for eyeballs and their design --there is no such thing as survivor need on Mars or the Moon. People didn't need to see colors to survive. There didn't need to be beauty to see --beauty for the thrill of one's soul! There are all kinds of creatures --no need for us to evolve to be as marvelous as we are.
There is INTELLIGENCE behind our very DNA.
Evolution doesn't address how life began, and never claimed to; we really don't understand exactly how it happened, and perhaps we never will. As I said, it explains the variety, distribution, and relationship of living things.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "survivor need," but the advantages of vision in general requires little justification, I hope. Vision, even in a rudimentary capacity, would aid greatly in navigation, finding food, avoiding predators, and tracking down a mate.
Color vision in particular was a distinct advantage to our tree-living ancestors by allowing them to distinguish the color of ripe fruit and leaves.
There are many other animals with color vision, by the way. Why would God waste color vision on creatures that can't appreciate the beauty of His creation?
You are right to say there was no need for us to evolve. If things had gone a little differently, we likely would not have evolved at all.
My response:
I’m not sure you fully appreciate the implications of this assertion. Along with the countless varieties of viruses, bacteria, fungi, mold, worms, arthropods, protozoa and insects that cause sickness and death in both humans and other animals, many diseases and parasites can only exist in the human body, including certain malarial parasites and tapeworms, hookworm, head, body, and pubic lice, polio, smallpox, measles, pneumonia, leprosy, tuberculosis, shingles, hepatitis and AIDS, not to mention HPV, Chlamydia, trichomoniasis, gonorrhea, and syphilis. It’s difficult to imagine Adam and Eve surviving very long wracked with these afflictions, and even more difficult to imagine a God who would create and pronounce such things “very good.”
So on one hand you say viruses and diseases are a neutral thing being neither good nor evil but then say they are not good if they are created? From a big picture standpoint viruses and diseases are a good thing because they select out individuals with weaker immune systems. Furthermore there is no need for Adam and Eve to bear every one of these things in their bodies. There were most likely other human beings around, just none with souls like Adam and Eve.
This is surely a diabolical doctrine. “Mankind” didn’t rebel against its maker; two individuals who had no concept of good and evil or death did. Their maker could have simply forgiven them, instructed them, nurtured them, guided them to understand right from wrong, but instead, in an act of supreme injustice and cruelty, cursed them, their descendents, and all living things. To worship this being as a “Heavenly Father” is an insult to even the worst fathers of this world.
If you care to read the bible you will see it is a historical record of the Creator continually forgiving, nurturing, and teaching us right from wrong. As for the curse, Women have pain in labor and are submissive to men, and men have to work the ground with the sweat and toil. This is not so harsh. What loving father does not discipline his children when they do what is harmful? As for the curse of being born into sin, that is not a curse, it is a consequence of their action. With great authority comes great responsbility and the consequences for failure are also proportional to that responsibility. Lucky for us the consequences have been removed by the obedience of Christ in suffering those consequences for us.
The evil caused by people doesn’t require a supernatural explanation, either; people choose, all too often, unfortunately, to do things which harm others.
But what causes a persons actions to be either evil or good? What moral framework is there to base such judgement on if the world is just a series of random events without purpose or intention?
So on one hand you say viruses and diseases are a neutral thing being neither good nor evil but then say they are not good if they are created?
Well, the evil effects on humans are the same either way; however, evolution is ultimately an unguided, impersonal process, while the creation of diseases and parasites with the intention of causing human suffering and death is an unequivically evil act.
There were most likely other human beings around, just none with souls like Adam and Eve.
This is simply heresy, C.A. What is your evidence for such an assumption? (Not that it really matters to me, of course. It's your fellow Christians you need to worry about.)
If you care to read the bible you will see it is a historical record of the Creator continually forgiving, nurturing, and teaching us right from wrong.
I have read the Bible, thank you. The creator I find is one who demands a life of unquestioning obedience and submission, who unjustly burdens us with disease and fear and death instead of simply forgiving us, and, even worse, sentences his children to eternal torment if we choose not to worship him.
As for the curse, Women have pain in labor and are submissive to men, and men have to work the ground with the sweat and toil. This is not so harsh. What loving father does not discipline his children when they do what is harmful?
There's more to the curse than just a painful, and, very often, fatal birthing process and farming, obviously. What loving father would inflict ebola, AIDS, malaria, measles, leprosy, polio and smallpox on his own children?
As for the curse of being born into sin, that is not a curse, it is a consequence of their action.
In your view, we are all born into sin because of the actions of Adam and Eve, not because of our own actions. What court in the land would convict the children of a criminal for the crimes of his mother and father? And, again, what was so bad about wanting to have knowledge of good and evil in the first place?
But what causes a persons actions to be either evil or good? What moral framework is there to base such judgement on if the world is just a series of random events without purpose or intention?
Generally speaking, those intentions and actions that promote love, understanding, compassion, trust, charity, health and happiness are good, and those that foster violence, hatred, theft, and dishonesty are evil.
Do you really need a god to tell you that murder, for example, is wrong? If so, by all means, keep believing!
Well, the evil effects on humans are the same either way; however, evolution is ultimately an unguided, impersonal process, while the creation of diseases and parasites with the intention of causing human suffering and death is an unequivically evil act.
If Hitler had died in 1941 from a virus or disease would this be unequivically evil?
This is simply heresy, C.A. What is your evidence for such an assumption? (Not that it really matters to me, of course. It's your fellow Christians you need to worry about.)
Its not heresy its heterodox. It is also a reasonable conclusion if you believe that God created life via evolutionary process, which I do.
I have read the Bible, thank you. The creator I find is one who demands a life of unquestioning obedience and submission, who unjustly burdens us with disease and fear and death instead of simply forgiving us, and, even worse, sentences his children to eternal torment if we choose not to worship him.
Or perhaps you read the bible and since these were your biases before hand you read them into the text. We are all susceptable to this problem as the bible is a large body of text spread over many different cultural backdrops which we do not fully understand.
In your view, we are all born into sin because of the actions of Adam and Eve, not because of our own actions. What court in the land would convict the children of a criminal for the crimes of his mother and father? And, again, what was so bad about wanting to have knowledge of good and evil in the first place?
Since God has provided a way for us escape the power of sin, by simply believing in Christ, if we hear and reject this way we are then held accountable for it. As for what is wrong with wanting to know good and evil. The only way to truly know something is to experience it. What if someone wanted to know what it was to murder someone. In order to really know they would have to go out and do it. It would be better to remain innocent and know only what is good, rather than to know both good and evil.
Generally speaking, those intentions and actions that promote love, understanding, compassion, trust, charity, health and happiness are good, and those that foster violence, hatred, theft, and dishonesty are evil.
This is your opinion. There are people who think human beings dont have any intrinsic value. Why should we accept your definition rather than these other peoples? In the end if morality is based on the opinions of men rather than some higher authority than morality is subjective and there is no right or wrong. If your naturalistic philosophy is correct than mankind, being at the top of the food chain, is the ultimate authority in the known universe.
Good answers, CA.
AndThenSome --why don't you put a profile on line so we can have a mental image of you as male, female, or whatever --as young or old --as single or married --parent or not, as employed or not --just to satisfy my curiosity.
For Christian Apologist, who wrote:
If Hitler had died in 1941 from a virus or disease would this be unequivically evil?
No. The problem is, though, that all of humanity--young and old, rich and poor, good and bad--are cursed with viruses and disease. There seems to be no guiding hand behind it, which is consistent with a naturalistic worldview.
Its not heresy its heterodox. It is also a reasonable conclusion if you believe that God created life via evolutionary process, which I do.
Both heresy and heterodoxy can be defined as “an opinion or doctrine contrary to the orthodox tenets of a religious body or church,” but no matter.
If you could, please, explain why a loving God would employ such a wasteful, cruel, and pitiless process as evolution to meet His ends when He could simply “poof” everything into existence, including humans complete with souls.
Or perhaps you read the bible and since these were your biases before hand you read them into the text. We are all susceptable to this problem as the bible is a large body of text spread over many different cultural backdrops which we do not fully understand.
Your Yahweh could have spared us all a lot of confusion by writing a book that clearly illustrates who and what he is and what he wants from us. Or he could easily communicate that to us directly. Instead, he leaves us with a collection of human writings, the Bible, which is open to multiple and often incompatible interpretations and misunderstandings. Why leave such critical information in the hands of fallible, biased, corruptible humans?
As for what is wrong with wanting to know good and evil. The only way to truly know something is to experience it. What if someone wanted to know what it was to murder someone. In order to really know they would have to go out and do it. It would be better to remain innocent and know only what is good, rather than to know both good and evil.
Clearly, the Adam and Eve story is not about experiential knowledge, unless you believe that Yahweh, the ultimate authority on good and evil, has first-hand experience with lying, rape, sodomy, theft, and murder, to name a few. And I hope you don't really mean to say that the only way we can really understand evil enough to avoid it is to commit the very acts we deem evil in the first place.
why don't you put a profile on line so we can have a mental image of you as male, female, or whatever --as young or old --as single or married --parent or not, as employed or not --just to satisfy my curiosity.
What have I done to warrant such curiosity? Should I be flattered or insulted?
If you could, please, explain why a loving God would employ such a wasteful, cruel, and pitiless process as evolution to meet His ends when He could simply “poof” everything into existence, including humans complete with souls.
I believe he did it that way because he loves the process as much as the end result. He is an artist and just like human artists it is sometimes best to take your time on something. You could just as easily ask why would God take 6 days to create the world when he could do it in an instant. My answer is that he created time also and he enjoys using it.
Your Yahweh could have spared us all a lot of confusion by writing a book that clearly illustrates who and what he is and what he wants from us. Or he could easily communicate that to us directly. Instead, he leaves us with a collection of human writings, the Bible, which is open to multiple and often incompatible interpretations and misunderstandings. Why leave such critical information in the hands of fallible, biased, corruptible humans?
You assume that the bible is not the clearest illustration of what we humans need for life. These are not simple concepts we are talking about. The nature of God, the nature of man, the nature of sin, how they all interact and much more. All necessary for living holy lives as God intended. Of course its long and complicated. You hit the nail on the head. Because we are fallible, corrupt, and biased; we take what is clear instruction and muddy it up with our own foolish misunderstanding. It is not the bible that is at fault it is us.
Clearly, the Adam and Eve story is not about experiential knowledge, unless you believe that Yahweh, the ultimate authority on good and evil, has first-hand experience with lying, rape, sodomy, theft, and murder, to name a few. And I hope you don't really mean to say that the only way we can really understand evil enough to avoid it is to commit the very acts we deem evil in the first place.
I disagree, it clearly is. Adam and eve did not know what evil was until they experienced it by eating the fruit which was forbidden by God. God does not have to experience evil to understand it. His intellectual capacities are far superior to our own and can understand every possible outcome to our actions.
If you could, please, explain why a loving God would employ such a wasteful, cruel, and pitiless process as evolution to meet His ends when He could simply “poof” everything into existence, including humans complete with souls.
Exactly one of my arguments against evolution. The God who can heal in an instant and resurrect in an instant didn't need such a system as evolution claims to be. If we can take stored knowledge and speak instant results on a computer, God's great mind is even more capable of the miraculous --whether you view it as spiritual or naturalistic technology beyond our mortal ability, I don't believe God's way would be evolution--judging by anything we know of Him from what He has made.
I imagine a "divine design team," in the Heavenlies --or on some other place beyond the universe or within it. "Let us make man in our image," they said.
Why leave such critical information in the hands of fallible, biased, corruptible humans?
He's made this critical info clear for all to see. Understandable and accessible --in spite of all the surrounding mystery.
Perhaps the whole story is what it is because even a child can understand it. God created man; man disobeyed; God punished; Man dies; God sent His Son; the Son gives His life; He rises to life everlasting--and promises the same for all who believe.
He is an artist and just like human artists it is sometimes best to take your time on something.
What kind of artist lingers over the pain, suffering and death of his creation?
Adam and eve did not know what evil was until they experienced it by eating the fruit which was forbidden by God.
Exactly! So why were they, and billions of humans and all living things, punished when Adam and Eve didn't know what they did was wrong?
I imagine a "divine design team," in the Heavenlies --or on some other place beyond the universe or within it. "Let us make man in our image," they said.
There are indeed many features of the human body that appear to have been designed by a committee.
But no human committee could come up with anything so marvelous as the human body --with its marvelous eyes, brain with innumberable files and functions, skin with its amazing properties including self-healing, cooling, etc., reproductive system with the male and female components and the pleasure in the process; adorable babies.
What kind of artist lingers over the pain, suffering and death of his creation?
All of this comes with the Fall --not with the evolution of man but with the devolution of man.
there are some sadistic artists, however.... but not our God.
Exactly! So why were they, and billions of humans and all living things, punished when Adam and Eve didn't know what they did was wrong?
Adam and eve knew it was wrong to eat from the tree. There is a distinction from knowing right and wrong and knowing good and evil.
Adam and eve knew it was wrong to eat from the tree. There is a distinction from knowing right and wrong and knowing good and evil.
And that distinction is?
A child knows that it is wrong to steal cookies from the cookie jar because mom and dad say not to. He doesnt understand that the reason is not because mom and dad are mean but that they dont want him to have an improper diet.
An evil act is something that you know will cause damage to yourself or others and you do it anyways.
It is a point of knowledge and accountability.
CA --is this distinction your own or some basic theological tenet?
I would say right is good and wrong is evil and the terms are more or less interchangeable. Disobedience to God is wrong and evil--and anything that is wrong and evil displeases God.
Personally, I think we bend over backwards sometimes trying to explain the mysterious. I think speculation is the best we can do to understand the tree of good and evil --and why we were not to eat of it. Maybe it was just a test we flunked.
Our faith is not in our own understanding of Genesis --but in the historicity of the Gospel of Christ --our faith is in Him, His death and resurrection --"Christ crucified, risen, and coming again."
People wisely tend to believe a resurrected man.
Whatever: Adam and Eve disobeyed God and when He called their names, they realized they were guilty --and also naked before Him --no hiding from God.
CA --is this distinction your own or some basic theological tenet?
I came up with it in response to ATS's questions. But it makes sense in light of the genesis account and also from 1 Tim. 1:13
I would say right is good and wrong is evil and the terms are more or less interchangeable. Disobedience to God is wrong and evil--and anything that is wrong and evil displeases God.
If the terms are interchangeable then adam and eve did not know right and wrong because they didnt have knowledge of good and evil. There must be a distinction between the two otherwise God was unjust in punishing Adam and Eve.
Personally, I think we bend over backwards sometimes trying to explain the mysterious. I think speculation is the best we can do to understand the tree of good and evil --and why we were not to eat of it. Maybe it was just a test we flunked.
Personally I think christians like to claim something is a mystery when they dont want to dig into theological questions. The question of evil and of why Christ needed to come and bring restoration to this broken world, is important, and is answered in Gen. 1-3. In fact Gen. 1-3 hold clues to a lot of theological questions.
Our faith is not in our own understanding of Genesis --but in the historicity of the Gospel of Christ --our faith is in Him, His death and resurrection --"Christ crucified, risen, and coming again."
Our faith also rests in the truthfulness and coherency of scripture. Without that you have nothing to believe about Christ.
I disagree with your last statement --that without the whole Bible being true and coherent we have nothing to believe about Christ. So how do YOU explain the atheists' argument about the two ways that Judas reportedly died. Both somehow true? Perhaps.
The New testament is clearly a history --with letters included. Any discrepancies that MAY be there are trivial --like straining at gnats and swallowing camels --EG: quibbling over insignificant details of Judas' death --or which people came to the tomb and when --while swallowing the camel of the atheist lie that God does not exist and that JEsus did not live, die and resurrect.
The Old Testament is history, too, but don't you ever wonder if the inspired understanding of God's heart in the OT WAS partial when it came to slavery and polygamy --where God said he'd give MORE wives if only....etc etc? Where the Jubilee released slave could not take his wife with him and would remain in servitude if he wanted to keep his wife.
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