Friday, April 30, 2010

The Emergent Church --Making NIce?

I'd welcome input here about "the emergent church."

My impression is that it is a phrase to describe a contemporary evangelical movement --away from political activism and toward just being "nice."

Of course, the church would not be persecuted if it is merely "nice" and "inoffensive, " and "politically correct," would it?

Is there nothing we should do or say that might get us persecuted? make us hated? crucified?

That's not the whole Gospel, is it??

Seems I recall Jesus calling people a "generation of vipers" who rejected and killed the prophets.
Offensive words!

Of course we are to love neighbor, brother, enemy. But there is no Biblical call to soft-soap truths that are difficult for modern people to swallow --like standing up for sexual morality and traditional marriage and not "shacking up." Against transgendering and gender-bending of all sorts.

After all, Jesus said a man should leave his parents and cleave to a wife. (Though I sure do like to have Rob around to take out the 5 live mice and one dead one in traps in the basement! Boy, we'll miss him when he leaves and cleaves!! )

"God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance and have eternal life."--the Bible


steve said...

Is this for me?

Well I've come to reject the notion that the Bible is the "inerrent word of God". God never spoke the vast majority of the words in the Bible - they were written by men who were, according to the writers, inspired by God. The words and the books of the bible - what constitutes Biblical Canon, was then Approved by men at various councils (the forrunner of the catholic church) in the early AD centuries. So when I think of the biblical writers who dealt with homosexuality, I think they were writing their personal bias and reflecting their cultural view at the time. If you think about it, all of the worlds religions are deeply patriarchial. It seems like their whole purpose is to continue patriarchy as a way to organize their societies to keep men as overlords of women. I believe, in the early Jewish tribal era - expressed in Deuteronomy - people saw homosexuality as a threat to patriarchy, so in these close knit societies homosexuality was agressively crushed. Same thing with the appostle Paul, I don't think he received any commandment of God in expressing his distain of homosexuality, he was expressing his own patriarchial leanings as a Jew. Notice that Jesus never spoke about homosexuality. Since I think that women are just as equal as men, I don't see homosexuality as a threat to my "patriarchy". I love my wife, and she loves me.. that's all that matters.

Look at Muslim societies today - they are murdurous toward homosexuality and are brazenly militant toward modernization that has allowed the rise of women's equality. They despirately fear this because they fear for their power over women. For the muslim male, homosexuality is a radical slap in the face to patriarchy.

Barb said...

uh, Steve --this article wasn't about homosexuality at all.

But you wonder why people of past cultures disapproved homosexuality? It was just prejudice for no good reason?

I mean, being "unnatural," worse than animal behavior since most animals don't even do it (yeah, some --but they do all kinds of horrible things that we know are wrong --like eating their young)--being ycchy and painful and injurious and counter to our bio-design aren't enough reasons to disapprove homosexuality?

besides the fact that diseases are inevitable with anal sex? And that oral sex is incompatible with the olfactory and taste senses and high risk for STD's?

And besides the fact if the men are going to "do" the men and avoid women, what hope for the human race???

Past cultures prized virginity in the women. there has always been sex for hire, but men did not readily turn to men in the meantime.

You don't need the Bible to realize that homosexuality is something you want your children to avoid at all costs.

I'm not talking about attractions and preferences for the company of one's own sex --but about the activities. No one needs to cross that moral line when the idea first occurs --any more than he needs to adulterate or commit pedophilia or incest.

I don't see homosexuality as a threat to patriarchy either. It's a threat to public health and decency, however --and a corruption of our youth.

Barb said...

You know what Jesus said --"Leave and cleave to Eve, not Steve."

Barb said...

Pardon me --I DID mention gender bending in this article --as one of the concerns for which Christians are hated and persecuted.

steve said...

I think I meant to put this in the other post.

Jeanette said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jeanette said...


I read your comment at Mudville when you first changed your avatar. You said it would drive us crazy.

It doesn't drive me crazy, but it makes me think you are worshiping a very evil man.

Do you see any redeeming qualities in this man who bows to Islam and insults the Prime Minister of Israel?

The Bible tells us God will bless those who bless Israel and punish those who do not.

I never thought I would ever see in my lifetime this country turning its back on Israel, but I am seeing it. I always thought it would happen during the tribulation, but I was wrong. But God told us in the Bible you think was man-inspired that it would happen.

If you still read the Bible check out Ezekiel 38 and see what's going to happen, and you can bank on it. We can see it happening even now.

Our economy is the way it is because we have elected a disciple of evil as President of the United States, and we are losing our blessing because he is turning his back on Israel.

If you were truly ever saved it's time for you to study the scriptures more and stay off the atheist blogs. But then you have their same worldview. You need to get right with God or you'll get to heaven by the skin of your teeth.

If you were saved you were adopted into the family of God, and in the days of Jesus a man could disown his blood child but could not disown an adopted child. You are an adopted child if you are really saved, but you will have to answer at the Berma Seat for your testimony since being redeemed. Will you hang your head or will Jesus praise you?

steve said...

Well I'm pretty ambivalent toward president Obama, he's neither a savior to me, or a demon. He's a politician - a very smart and effective and competent politician - something our country needs at the moment. I think people place too much emphases on the President. He is only 1/3 the government. If anything, this regarding of the President - as if he were a king. Is pointless because it is congress that actually does the legislating and it's congressional decisions that effect our lives. The president merely tries to steer the congress in the direction he would like to go - and as President Obama has found out, it's like herding cats. President Bush had it easy because he led a congress that was in lock step agreement with his Neocon agenda and his neocon backers. (Notice that president Bush didn't even threaten a veto until after 2006 when Democrats took congress - But President Obama has already threatened a veto on the Democrat controlled congress concerning the trading of derivatives in the financial overhaul bill) - that shows leadership.

You make a lot of hay out of President Obama "bowing to Islam". I don't see it that way. He is making a gesture to them as a good neighbor. But christians these days seem to have forgot the idea of "loving your neighbor as yourself". So I think President Obama reflects Christian values more so than most so called Christians in the country do. At least President Obama didn't hold the Saudi Kings hand and bow down to him in some kind of kinky love fest like GWB did!


the happy couple

As far as I can tell (by dollars - not words) we are supporting Israel more than ever.. Do I need to school you in the Geopolitical puppet mastery Obama is trying to pull by publicly shunning Israel, but privately kissing his ass?

But I'd like to know, what has Obama SPECIFICALLY done that makes you think he's a demon?

steve said...

Jesus said in John:

12. "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.
13. "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.
14. "You are My friends, if you do what I command you.
15. "No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.
16. "You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask of the Father in My name, He may give to you.
17. "This I command you, that you love one another.

Ignoring the kookie Calvanists who use this verse to justify their predestination doctrines. I think what Jesus is saying is that he chooses each one of us to express our love for one another in different ways. Now love for one another can take many forms. For me, I have felt the call to be a nurse. Even if I don't get a job as a nurse when I graduate (nobody is hiring). I will volunteer my skills and expertise to someone - maybe the alzheimers association that I have volunteered with a lot. But maybe President is showing his love by TRYING HIS DARNDEST NIGHT AND DAY to stop people from killing one another and eliminate the threat of nuclear weapons. Obama is a "peacemaker" and you know that the bible says "Blessed are the Peacemakers - they will be called the sons of God" So calling Obama a demon when he is trying to make peace - aren't you afraid of God's judgement?

If making peace involves honoring a contries cultural norms - like bowing, or kissing cheeks? What's the big deal? Would you have rather him spent millions of your tax dollars flying over there in Airforce one, just to act like a pompous ass and left empty handed? Granted, honoring customs is no guaruntee of getting anything accomplished, but it doesn't hurt either. Lets be smart people!

When I was in the Marines in the first Gulf war, we had to take Islamic sensitivity training so that we wouldn't offend them while we were blowing them to smithereens. I still have the document (ALMAR) in my marine stuff because as 20 year old Marines we thought it was INSANE! But now I see the wisdom in honoring the culture of your enemy. Because the Great warrior poet Sun Tzu said:

"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle."

"For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."

"What is essential in war is victory, not prolonged operations."

And Machiavelli:

"My father taught me many things here — he taught me in this room. He taught me — keep your friends close but your enemies closer."

Jeanette said...

I didn't say Obama is a demon. Don't put words into my mouth. I said he is an evil man.

Look at how he acts. It speaks volumes. And don't bring race into this because that's not the case. I see a man who is trying as quickly as he can to destroy what this country is and has been since its inception.

I see a man who publicly insults one of our best friends and allies, Israel, while bowing to the King of Saudi Arabia and even to the emperor of Japan.

This is the President of the United States and he should bow to no one but God.

He speaks glowingly of Islam. I have nothing against Muslim people if they are peaceful, but I think Obama doesn't really know what his religious beliefs are or is concealing what he really believes to the public.

You can't go to Islamic schools and live with an Islamic father and then step-father without being influenced by them.

Listen to how his pastor in Chicago said God D**n America. I would have gotten up and walked out, but Obama said he wasn't there and even when he heard the tapes he tried to make excuses.

He is a disciple of Saul Alinski and every now and then his inner Alinski comes out such as when he says he thinks at some point people make too much money. This from a man who made over $5 million last year according to his tax statements.

He wants bills passed without anyone really knowing what's in them. Remember the famous line by Alcee Hastings: "We don't have any rules around here. We make them up as we go."

Kathleen Sebelius had information from the CBO showing the actual result of the Health Care bill would be higher taxes for everyone and not revenue neutral as claimed. She held that information even though she had it a week before the vote.

Nancy Pelosi told us we would know what was in the bill when it was passed.

The arrogance of Obama and his cronies in congress is abhorrent and people are sick of it.

I have questions as to whether Obama knows what he is doing and isn't worried about re-election because he will generate some type of "crisis" and declare martial law, forbidding an election. I'm not the only one with those fears.

The Health Care bill has passed, and as Nancy said, we will figure out what's in it after it goes into effect. I just pray it's as good as advertised.

The very fact that you, a Christian, are demonizing Israel with your words shows what I am trying to tell you. We have forsaken Israel unless she plays by our rules and it matters not that she is a very small country surrounded by neighbors who would love to destroy her. But God isn't going to allow that. That's why I referred you to Ezekiel 38.

I have no personal bone to pick with you, Steve, but I do wish you would look at reality instead of making excuses or blaming Bush. He's been gone for a year and a half and it's time to quit blaming him for every bad thing that has happened since the Garden of Eden.

Yes, I disagreed with him quite a few times. I never followed him as though he was perfect. This is what Obama supporters are doing.

Obama is actively stoking racism in this country when he calls on all the blacks, Hispanics etc. to get out and vote the way they did the last time.

The racism is coming from the left and not the right. Not the way Mudrake would like you to believe it anyway. There are bad apples in every race. We shouldn't be stirring them up on either side.

If you are really saved I have no doubt God will bring you back to Him and back to your senses. You're still young and think you have all the answers when none of us even knows the questions.

Jeanette said...


The Bible also tells us there will be false peacemakers.

Jeanette said...

Again, I never called Obama a demon. I said I think he is a very evil man and I do.

steve said...

Our economy is the way it is is because President Bush wrecked the economy by fighting a two front war while simultaneously enacting irresponsible tax cuts. To say anything other is willful blind disregard of history and facts. Here is a chart that explains the whole morass in sad detail:


Notice the biggest whack to the debt was caused by the wars, the tax cuts, and medicare part D (to make retirees happy and make them Bush Pioneers). Notice also the biggest hit is the 2008 / 2009 recession which was caused by the Wallstreet pyramid scheme of trading risky CDO's. They were able to do all their Wallstreet shenanigans that caused this recession because of the Gramm Leech Bliley Act of 1999. (Granted President Clinton signed the death warrant into law). President Obama was handed the broom and mop to clean up the mess the republicans made in their 8 years of Rule. To believe anything different is a denial of the facts and shows a penchant for delusion.

Jeanette said...

One question, Steve, or maybe another too: Who ran Congress the last two years of the Bush Administration?

Who has collected more money from Goldman Sachs for campaign contributions than any other party or person? Obama and Reid.

Who has so many ex Goldman employees in his White House?

Don't be brainwashed. Politicians are politicians and, truth be told, none of them is honest.

steve said...


"My father taught me many things here — he taught me in this room. He taught me — keep your friends close but your enemies closer."

mud_rake said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Barb said...

Non-substantive comments that are mere personal insults do not need to be here, do they?

mud_rake said...

"And I realized during our excursion on the French blog I was willing to allow people to blaspheme God and His Son in order to get along."

Oh, REALLY? Just how long did it take for you to realize that, Jeanette? Perhaps your need to 'be loved' compromised your religious values, your biblical teachings.

I pointed it out to you on many occasions but you derided me, you chastised me, you called me names.

Odd behavior for a "christian" but then, there are Christians and then there are [c]hristians.

Christian Apologist said...

Steve you said.
"Well I've come to reject the notion that the Bible is the "inerrent word of God". God never spoke the vast majority of the words in the Bible - they were written by men who were, according to the writers, inspired by God. "

But Peter testifies in 2Peter 3 "14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. "

so Peter is Saying that what Paul wrote is scripture. and Paul says in 2 Timothy 3:16 that all scripture is God-breathed and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.

If you will not rely on the testimony of these two men as to the validity of scripture where will you learn the ways of God that you may show your love for him through obedience?

Furthermore when Paul is speaking on his own authority he makes it clear. for example in 1 Timothy he says I do not permit a woman to teach... or in Romans he says what if, God chooses to make some vessels for honor and others for dishonor.
He makes no such equivocation when he says in Romans 1 that God gave men over to depraved minds exchanging the truth of God for a lie and abandoning the natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another.

Barb said...

to steve -- The Bible is surely amazing and well-preserved --just as God's Word should be.

Inerrant? there are some things i don't understand that are in it, but there is a big leap from questioning the inerrancy of scripture to believing that the prohibitions against ALL sex outside of heterosexual marriage is sin. Marriage between same sex persons just defies logic, common sense, the natural order, etc. It's accommodating and encouraging a mental illness instead of trying to help it.

I'm surprised they aren't hiring nurses --I thought that was one place of shortages.

Jeanette said...