Thursday, July 8, 2010

Another blogger's remark at another blog --and my reply:

...the example you’re giving says nothing about the right of
fully-informed, competent, consenting adults to marry any more than cross-gender
rape or pedophilia indicts heterosexuality and heterosexual

If homosexuality starts with gay predators inducting kids into the life , (and that is a common result of homosexual rape in Afghanistan, according to the article) as is statistically common in “the life,” with homosexuals reporting early sexual activity with older gays, before such kids are old enough to have normal relationships, then it is a lifestyle addiction that passes itself on to succeeding generations of young men (as in the Catholic priesthood) –and such predators have advocated for pedophilia and lowering ages of consent in other countries –and mark my words, they will do so here, also.

In fact, I saw my first Law & Order story yesterday, on TV, in which pedophiles made the argument for themselves that they cannot help their orientation, cannot change it, and resemble homosexuals in their claim to an inevitable condition from birth.

Sodomy is activity that should be eradicated from the face of the earth–voluntarily–by ALL citizens respecting decency and rejecting perversion and refusing to participate or condone it. “Gay marriage” is condoning sex practices which are harmful to the body, dangerous to personal and public health. I’m not advocating penalties for consenting adults; I’m saying we need to stop condoning such wrong-headedness.

No, as you said, I don’t get a right to determine the law –God already did that –but I have a right to prophesy or preach forth God’s will for human-kind as has been done for centuries by people of God –and they have never been popular with those who prefer evil to good –who can’t tell the difference between the two –anymore than they can confine their love-making to the proper body orifices with the opposite sex. There is no compelling sexual need for anyone to have anal sodomy or oral, for that matter, with their own sex. If men need male friendship, male love, male affection, male affirmation they can join a church (and not for the priests –but one of those fellowshiping churches that spend time with one another.) For sex, they can marry women, who do get the job done –even with homosexuals who have fathered children–obviously they can get excited enough to make a baby with a woman.

The goal of parents should be to cultivate normal interests by how they parent. Parents have made a lot of mistakes –and even if they didn’t, the culture has taken over to make homosexuality "trendy" and to mislead our youngsters.

God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to
repentance and have eternal life."--the Bible


James said...

"If homosexuality starts with gay predators inducting kids into the life"

For some, but in most cases, that's not the case. Where do hear this?

In regards to gay marriage, you're free to disagree with it of course, but our government exists to secure the rights and liberties of its people, not serve as an enforcer of morality.

By the way, the Bible is clear on when divorce is acceptable: the sexual infidelity of one's partner. That's it. Not neglect or physical/emotional abuse, not alcohol or drug abuse. (The Catholic and Orthodox Churches are pretty liberal in this regard. The Orthodox allow up to 3 marriages, and the Catholics created this process called an "annulment" which they believe somehow makes the original marriage a nonentity.)

In any rate, our marriage laws aren't even close to that. You can get married and divorced 20 times.

In all of these cases, these people are living in unrepentant adultery for most of their lives.

That is a fact.

Adultery, along with homosexual conduct, is a damnable sin, according to the Bible.

However, I don't see anyone campaigning for a more restrictive set of marriage laws for heterosexuals (such as a repeal of no-fault divorce laws). There are no websites set up. Preachers don't bother talking about it, generally. There are certainly no lobbying groups like there are against gay mariage. All this, despite the fact that this form of adultery is being engaged in by a far greater percentage of the population than homosexuality ever will.

Why is that?

It would seem to me that if all of this outrage over homosexual conduct were truly principled, the same people would be campaigning for other types of changes in the culture. I don't see that.

Barb said...

Me: "If homosexuality starts with gay predators inducting kids into the life...."
James: For some, but in most cases, that's not the case.

We know this, how? There have been studies, throughout the last
70 years of homosexuals, and many gays self-reported early homosexual experience while under-age.

I wouldn't trust studies today, because the gay community knows what not to say to give a better impression of their activities and histories --in order to further their agenda with untruths. I usually hear them make general denials of what Psychs. used to say was true of homosexuals --and not tell you about anything in their backgrounds that got them started.

As for no-fault divorce, there have been Christian groups who opposed this change in the law. People are not agitating about that now because divorce may seem harder on children when the parents drag each other through the court coals in search of "fault."

You are unaware obviously, because Christian groups have tons of teaching tapes and books and preachings on marriage, making it work --against divorce, and so on.

Jesus's silence on some issues doesn't mean advocacy. You think that because he said nothing about divorce from drunken and abusive and dangerous spouses that he would want women and kids to stay with such men?? Likewise, people think gay marriage is OK because Jesus didn't speak to it directly. He actually speaks against harm of children explicitly and speaks FOR straight marriage as God's creation plan. The Bible in general speaks against drunkenness and violence, stealing, etc. I doubt the Bible would defend staying with the spouse who abuses or gambles or drugs away all the family bread money. Such a spouse is likely to commit adultery too.

Barb said...

As for adultery, the Bible is clearly against it. Jesus said when you divorce someone who has not been adulterous, you force them into adultery by divorcing them--the assumption is that women would re-marry to be supported, if they could --and now their marital one-flesh purity is "adulterated" by someone else while their spouse is still living.

The fact is that divorce won't be the only damnable offense --unbelief in Christ will be also. For divorce, there is forgiveness when people repent of their sins in general.

I personally believe that divorce is very serious --and that we should be sorry for it when we simply stop loving a faithful spouse.

Christ said He did not come to condemn us for our sins --but to save us. He said, "Repent, for the Kingdom is nigh." And once saved, we should go and sin no more. I believe that a saved person will not dump a spouse for any reason other than adultery--for it is sin. But once done, people usually can't "unring" that divorce bell and do need to repent of it. I think it's possible to view one's marriage as a mistake in those early years ---and seek forgiveness as they seek to undo it. But generally, Christ would have us learn to love a spouse, regardless, as He said, "God hates divorce."

I believe Jesus starts where we are --hence, there are divorced and remarried people received to Christ and the church --"as they are." The divorced and remarried repent, and He cleans them up and is willing to help them make their lives moral, serving Him, from now on.

But no question about it, the Christian churches preach against divorce and in favor of faithful marriage. They try to help people stay married.

I'm quite sure that our dysfunctional hetero marriages are responsible for much homosexuality.

The church's role has long been to build marriage, discourage divorce, and teach people to avoid homosexuality, adultery, pedophilia, prostitution, fornication, ETC --from the start.

Living as a remarried person after divorce from an innocent partner is quite different from behaving homosexually.

Divorce itself WAS allowed by God in a way that homosexuality was never. "for the hardness of your hearts, " Jesus said.

James said...

Barb writes: "I doubt the Bible would defend staying with the spouse who abuses or gambles or drugs away all the family bread money"

I don't want to sound like I'm picking on you, because you're obviously very thoughtful and sincere.

I wish the Bible were indeed more merciful and understanding in this manner, but Christ was clear.

We have several passages:

Luke 16:18 (Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.)

Mark 10:11 (And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.)

Matthew 5:32 (But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.)

I don't know how we can get away from the clarity of these passages. What has happened, I think, Barb, is that Christians have in the last few decades come to view God in a more merciful light. He's not as frequently the God portrayed as the one in Jon Edwards' famous "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God". Look at the popularity of books like "The Shack" as well as the entire Charismatic and Word of Faith movements. This is a God who "understands" and is a "friend", not as often someone who wants to burn you to a crisp over a roaring fire.

As such, the above passages are re-interpreted in this light. Unfortunately, if we are to take them for what they are, I don't see how we can escape the hardness of it.

Perhaps you see where I'm going with this. Christians' understanding of what is moral has evolved and indeed, changed to satisfy people's modern perception of God. Your comments reflect this (although I believe that YOU believe you're interpreting it correctly).

I, too, have a difficult time believing that God would condemn someone who had to divorce a spouse who was abusive. I've seen the toll it can take on the human spirit. Nevertheless, the Bible is clear.

So too, with homosexuality. Yes, the Bible is indeed clear. However, I know many, many gay folks who are not as the image portrayed and who seek to live their lives with integrity (which, for some, includes living monogamously with someone of the same sex). I know of two men who adopted several minority children (a couple of them who were born with HIV). I don't think there's a place in Hell for these guys, I really don't, despite what the Bible says.

My point (long-winded, I realize) is that this view is not inconsistent with the way most Christians today treat divorced couples.

They're doing the best they can with the light they've been given.

Barb said...

I certainly don't defend divorce and remarriage --but when a couple comes to our church, regardless of their history, we assume they are --or lead them to be --repentant about their sins --including those in past or present marriages. The Bible does suggest that God is just as displeased with divorce as with homosexual immorality --but in re-marriage, a couple has made a new vow to be a hetero couple in the creation image of God as male and female. We do know, however, that the general public has a lot of trouble staying married, being faithful, etc --what with our culture's influence in porn and internet hook-ups. We know that divorce and remarriage are hard on children and blended families. We hear that children of divorce have over 90 per cent chance of also divorcing. Just like unwed teen mothers' daughters have over 90% chance of unwed teen pregnancy themselves. None of this is good for our society, our personal well-being, and so we have no pride parades for fornication, adultery, divorce --or even "re-marriage after divorce." But we do "allow" it.

And likewise, we ALLOW homosexual couples to co-exist --and they even can get "married" in some churches --and they raise the children they have conceived with heteros in previous relationships --or whatever means they can manage --like private adoptions. But we do not need to legally recognize the act of sodomy which is truly what homosexuality is about --using the wrong orifices with the wrong sex to have orgasms. If it was just about affection and love between the same sexes, fine, but it isn't. It's about carnality that God hates. We don't want to celebrate gender identity disorder so that our children think it's of no consequence if they are unhappy in their assigned bodies and choose to cross-gender. We don't want to celebrate homosexuality such that children think it doesn't matter which way they swing --and follow their "parents" footsteps into homosexuality with all its downsides --the same way kids divorce like their parents --and have babies as unwed teens like their parents. Because it DOES matter --it makes a big difference in the culture, the family, the individual --and to the children.

Barb said...

We have no business "sanctifying" and creating a new kind of "marriage" of same-sex people --which has built in to the arrangement the denial of a mother or a father --and the denial of even a mother figure or father figure -- for children in that gay, step-parented family.

The homosexual couple is at odds with the image of God --not just His divine preference for our marital life as in marriage vs. divorce. He intends for male and female to be coupled with one another. Or to be celibate singles. He abominates when we can't find the right sex or the right orifices for sexual intimacy --as though we were dumb animals like dogs who hump people's legs, willing to grab any warm body that has a sexual scent!

We are to be choice-making, discriminating, obedient individuals. That does mean we should stay married to the first spouse except for adultery (God is a jealous God about other gods --and our relationship of Christ to Church is said to be like that of husband to wife. And God doesn't tolerate infidelity via idolatry any more than we can tolerate adultery.

As for divorce, most churches do not condone or perform divorces or annulments. And some won't re-marry people, but most all churches receive the divorced singles for whatever reasons and the re-married couples --as their history IS between them and God. And some of us believe in redemption and fresh starts in re-marriages. But a gay couple is continuing to demonstrate their situation. They are welcome to sit in most church pews to hear the sermon --but they will not be considered for membership while living in sin --any more than the unrepentant adulterating couple will be allowed to join.

Yes, annulment in the Catholic Church has been a loophole for a long time --as an official way to recognize the divorced person's fresh start in a new marriage.

Because none of the sexual sins are the "unpardonable sin."

But homosexual coupling is chronic sin --there is no fresh start without abandoning the lifestyle.

Barb said...

I said, "If it was just about affection and love between the same sexes, fine, but it isn't."

I meant that there is nothing wrong with affection and love for friends of the same sex. It's the sexual relationship that is the sin. People can have their bosom buddies of the same sex --like David and Jonathan of the Bible --but they are not to lie with one another as with the opposite sex. That goes against God's design plan for our bodies. Divorce and remarriage are against his plan--but not against his design for our sexuality.