Tuesday, December 18, 2007

Church-State Separation


On Kooz's blog (see my blogroll link to Kooz News,) he has an article on church state separation. Blogger Roland Hansen gives us the above link and on that link, the 3rd article which is from Answers.com and the U.S. History Encyclopedia is pretty comprehensive in clarifying the issues, I think. A good presentation there overall.

The linked article shows that Christianity is really influential in America's history --though liberals are fond of saying this is not so --that our founders were merely "deists." Even deists, however, are not atheists.

The current controversy re church-state separation is caused by unbelievers who want change in what has been traditional in America. The Christians are accused of being the ones who want change to their ways, but that's not the history. Today, the "change agents" are those who want freedom from the "shackles" of Bible-influenced, traditional American cultural mores and religious observance of Christmas and Easter and public prayers, however non-sectarian.

I say such liberals want to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs --Judeo-Christian views of human rights and limits, the secular definitions of right and wrong which come from Judeo Christian values. I believe our religion-based values system is a major cause of the old-fashioned work ethic (called the protestant work ethic), our optimism and "can-do spirit," Yankee ingenuity, our charity, compassion, forgiveness --and even our tolerance --and moral standards as a nation. We have been a --perhaps THE-- most blessed nation -and perhaps the most Christian. If we lose this position --and some say we are losing our blessings economically, you'll have trouble proving to me that it is not God's protective hand lifted because we are preferring to go our own way as a people, instead of God's way. We want Him out of public life to such an extreme extent, that He just may leave us to our own consequences. (Of course, I have to admit that the Great Depression in our history came at a time when America had legalized prohibition --due to the religiously devout in our country. However, during that time people could leave their doors unlocked and it was not uncommon for housewives to extend charity to hobos at their back doors --as did my grandmother. Today we would be more fearful and cautious, such is the prevalence of rape and murder, etc.)

"Righteousness exalts a nation--but sin is a reproach to any people." "In the last days, men will call good evil and evil, good." That's what I think of our push and celebration of gay sex and atheism, calling evil good. The homosex and transgendering are so counter to God's bio-design for procreation, His sanction of either marital sex or celibacy --we have no other choice that pleases Him in what we do with our bodies --which are first of all to be presented to HIM as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing and acceptable unto God.

There is no more blatant defiance of God's will than for kids to grow up thinking they can transgender and desire sex with the same sex --if they've been given perfectly healthy and functional male or female bodies. To conform our bodies surgically to go with our mental fixations on being what we are not created to be --it's craziness. And a Godless, God-denying culture helps to cause it. the problem is between the ears and in the soul--and that's where the fix needs to occur. Submission to the Creator's will, first of all. And parents can play a big role in raising children who are not sexually confused but glad to be either male or female. Though the confusion doesn't always come from parents in today's culture.

I believe that repentance to God for our sins by the majority of Americans would restore the greatness that Alexis de Toqueville lauded when he said,

"America is great because she is good --the secret of her goodness lies in her churches with her pulpits aflame with righteousness --if she ever ceases to be good, she will cease to be great."

Has that day arrived?

"God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance and have eternal life."--the Bible


craig said...

Did you even read your own link? The seperation of church and state is absolutely essential to guarantee our religious freedom. Remember why the pilgrims came over here? To escape religious persecution.
Secularism didn't arise from nonbelievers, it arose out of neccessity for successful co-existence in a society with a multitude of Christian denominations.

Barb said...

Craig, secularism isn't bad in its place for our legit secular aims --but when it goes so far as to be a new religion of moral neutrality in a culture, we've got trouble.

I was just talking to my best friend from h.s. last night. She called me up after years of losing touch. She is a sales rep to jewelry stores. She was selling her stuff to a guy from another country --from far east --Indonesia comes to mind. He told how when a certain type of rich and showy customer (black in this case) came in, he bragged about how he would jack the price up on her product and the guy would pay it! He thought this was so cool.

My friend said she didn't even sell to him anymore. She was so disturbed and said to me, "This is so not American!" Americans believed in honesty in business and not jacking up a price because you don't like a certain customer and think you can rip him off. This guy was bragging about what he should've seen as shameful.

Her lament was that people from some foreign cultures do not share our values and are not assimilating well. she's in an urban area and sees even more of this than I would.

(Yeah, we do have our reputation of used car salesmen, I should've said --who always had the humorist's reputation for selling known "lemons." --but in fact, there are also good and honest used car salesmen in our country.)

I have always heard that most other peoples of the world didn't feel any religious guilt for cheating in the marketplace. they lie to you about this great product they are selling.

And yes, I know, we've had Enron and similar scandals. Scrooges and crooks abound even in America --BUT "honesty is the best policy" --the Horatio Algier stories for boys, the Grace Livingston Hill books for girls--the "Golden Rule" taught in public education as a standard--these did affect our culture for the better --and made us a unique and better nation. But now, moral neutrality and "situation ethics" and "non-judgmental education" are the rage --while people like Mud-rake and Microdot work as hard as they can to persuade bloggers that Jesus is just another Mithra myth and God is non-existant--at least the biblical God.

Why is it that French are known for snobbery and unfriendliness, rudeness,bluntness, actually --they are, you know, without any sense of guilt for their lack of courtesy and respect for others? (Yes, I know, there are surely, hopefully, exceptions to the rule.) And Marketplaces the world over, especially in 3rd world countries, haggle to up prices -rather than setting a fair price for all. Of course, their getting the best price is not my criticism --it's the lying without guilt that accompanies business. I know, they are desperate to sell. But they've also never heard that "honesty is the best policy" in business.

And we are becoming worse in this regard: Now if I ask a company to go on my roof and see if I have any nail-pop-ups and any flashing to repair, any window caulking to do --they know I'm not getting up there to see for myself. I had estimates ranging from $150 of work to $2500 of work. I suspect the high end was saying, "A special price for you, Doctor! in this neighborhood!"

I grew up used to people who could be trusted to do an honest day's work for their pay --We can't count on that anymore. People take advantage of their employers and vice versa. We can't feed the homeless man at the back door like my grandmother did during the Depression--or leave our doors unlocked.

We are a culture in decline if we don't value honesty, fidelity, giving an hour's work for the hour's wage and vice-versa, if we can't give out our credit card to businesses, when we have to worry about con artists and identity theft.

A young man gave his girlfriend money to pay some basic bills --and she bought a new tv with it. She already had a decent tv so he asked why she misused the money he gave her --and she said, "I deserved this TV --I deserve nice things." Well, let me tell you that is right out of public school and Oprah-speak --with their psychology of the self-esteem cult.

I don't know about you, but I want a culture where people believe it is immoral to lie, adulterate, molest, cheat, and yes, abort, have sex with one's own sex --the way it used to be before "secularism" became a religion with the Self and its wants as its god.

We shall reap what we sow.

mud_rake said...






Barb said...

Why don't you just block me as usual,Mudrake? Why all the attention-getting hooplah? Are you hoping for some praise from somebody?

craig said...

I don't understand how you equate secularism with immorality. Are you somehow oblivious of all the atrocities committed in God's name?

Barb said...

I don't equate secularism with immorality. Yes, I know that atrocities have been committed by sinful men in God's name and others'. But mostly because tyrants wanted more power --or because people were defending themselves against tyranny --or simply fighting for survival against enemies who would kill them to take their land or their autonomy, etc.

When you come down to it --other cultures do not ALL necessarily agree with humanists or Christians about the right to life, the value of honesty in all things, the virtue of marital fidelity, the values of freedom and equal rights for all people and the simple definitions of right and wrong.

Secular only means "non-religious" --for the here and now only. Therefore, secular means whatever any culture wants it to mean. Without a Judeo-Christian history and foundation, other cultures are truly inferior in their view of freedom and rights and equality of all people--and in their view of honesty. Western culture has influenced the rest of the world to be more like us in ideals --but only Christianity gets to the Hearts of the matter --the hearts of people --to help them love and forgive, share and be compassionate to all.

steve said...

Oh my! how the Toledo blog world turns.

I'm beginning to think that you and Mudrake are the same person whose purpose is to spur debate by taking such extreme diametrically opposed views that any debate winds up in a sort of middle ground. You are like the antithesis to Mudrakes thesis.. LOL.

I think it's a shame that Mudrake banned you. The object, in my mind anyway of a politically charged blog is to effect change in people who may have a different opinion from your own. If you limit your audience to only those that are in lockstep agreement with you then you are only preaching to the choir.

kooz said...


I read mudrakes post that officially banned you. Don't worry...he will still read your blog. One thing I've learned working in radio...is the people who hate you most and tell you they will no longer listen...are always your biggest listeners.

I feel sorry for mudrake though. He is incapable of discussing issues with people that disagree with him without calling them duragatory names. Its obvious that he is gay...I disagree with his lifestyle...but, I wouldn't call him a name such as fag or queer or some more disturbing ones.

I think with people like mudrake...their anger is so deep...because their real problem is with the standards God has set...people like mudrake are rebellious against the things...he has a hole that only God can fill but refuses to.

I say we pray for him and hope God reveals to him his need for Christ...and ultimately for his repentance.

Barb said...

He'll not admit being gay, having a wife and two children. I'm not sure he IS gay --but he takes my view about homosexuality very personally --which WOULD be a good thing IF their lifestyle really was God-ordained as something good and therefore defensible. To him, disapproval of the lifestyle on Biblical grounds is the same as bigotry or hatred toward gays --when, in fact, it is not.

What you say is right that he is angry at God's standards and he thinks they are man-made standards. We see it differently.

I do need to pray more, blog less.
But I am prayerful about blogging --and am always willing to be Mudrake's friend --even if we don't agree. He likes me less than I like him --which is the difference that Christ makes --the ability to not take persecution personally and to forgive it. But I do get irritated with chronic, hyperbolic misrepresentation of my real views and the people who read the misrepresentations instead of drawing their own conclusions by actually reading what i said. and it is sad that insults are the form of discussion for him.

Thanks, gentlemen, for your encouragement.

Steve, I agree that it's a good thing for someone to post antitheses to Mudly's theses.

steve said...

God may not like gays, but I'm almost certain he doesn't like people not remembering the Sabbath and not keeping it holy. He cares a lot more about that than gays because he codified it into law in the 10 commandments. That's why I'm going to picket the Christian bookstore, or maybe Walmarts this Sunday for defiling the sabbath day.

Barb said...

Sure you are --picketing this Sunday. Your concern for the Sabbath is so touching!

Jesus tweaked the law when he said "Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath."

But we probably SHOULD close everything down on Sundays. Actually, you need to demonstrate about Saturday, don't you think? For church people, Saturday IS our day of rest --the day to sleep in.

As for the 10 c's --they took it for granted that marriage was between a man and a woman and infidelity before or during marriage was sin. The Old Testament also clearly and specifically condemns same sex activity, sex with animals and between close relatives (incest).

steve said...

Details details details...