Saturday, March 14, 2009

Bloggin Delays

from Rob R

As I've mentioned in the problem of evil blog, I intend to give the topic of omniscience it's own blog topic. But though I said I would respond to it tonight, life gets in the way.

Also, I am a slow reader, writer and thinker, so these things take time (which is a mix of my ADD and my desire to give a qualitative and detailed answer). Consider that my problem of evil post took me approximately a week to write. Also I'm not going to work straight through til its done as I intend to continue responding to other topics here and there.

I don't intend to make this as long as my problem of evil thread, but I hope to outline for people why it is that I hold the position that I do on several levels. I don't expect that it will be as thorough as my problem of evil thread but it will give a decent amount of detail.

Sorry for the wait, but good things come to those who wait. And my dedication to quality is more important than constant expedience. And when I take the time to think through these more thoroughly, my quality goes up significantly.

Hopefully it will be up by Wednesday, but it could be done as early as Monday.

37 comments:

AndThenSome said...

I completely understand, Ron R. I really envy people who can easily produce quality, cogent writing. Maybe they just make it look easy.

No need to hurry on my account. It'll be ready when it's ready.

Rob R said...

bless your heart.

Rob R said...

Well, I'm somewhere between 2/3rds to 3/4s done. This actually may be longer than my poe topic. But the reason is it's so long is that there is a significant amount of cut and paste. There was nothing to cut and paste in that topic.

kateb said...

It was a good post Rob. I'm looking forward to the next.

Kate

Anonymous said...

What is evil is this blog. It's violently boring.

Rob R said...

very good.

Violence is the answer after all.

AndThenSome said...

I'm not sure why kateb's and my comments were deleted in the "evil" post below--they weren't technically on topic, I'll admit, but they seemed positive enough.

Ah, well.

Jeanette said...

The entire conversation on the "Evil" topic has turned me off completely.

I have explained what I disagree with and why so there's no point in going over it again here, but I think you, Rob, are a bit thin-skinned to delete comments just because they don't pertain to the topic you want to discuss.

The purpose of blogs is to develop discussion wherever it may lead. It has turned into insults and hurt feelings for some and deletions by you, Rob, because you think it's not appropriate for your topic---to the point of deleting your own mother who owns this blog.

I realize it is your right to delete whatever you want to delete and I go by the general rule that if it isn't blasphemous or taking the Lord's name in vain, I allow the conversation to flow. If someone criticizes my statements I either answer them or let them stay without comment if one is not necessary.

Over here I have noticed you, Rob, deleting comments like Mudrake when you disagree or decide you have a wild hair and want to keep to the topic because maybe you have not stated your positions properly and are called out for it or because you seem to have a strange belief. I'm not sure what I think of your beliefs yet but I did see some petty comments from people on the other thread and saw some with hurt feelings. Why? Why are Christians hurting other Christians? Why don't we discuss our beliefs so unbelievers can see them for themselves but do it in a biblical way and not to score debate points?

Why would any Christian think God may decide to let some people out of hell when there is nothing in scripture to back that up? Why would any believer say God may not have known everything when that is a basic tenet of our faith?

In trying to defend ourselves from atheist attacks we try to humanize God and He is not human. When He says He's going to do something you can bank on it.

When He says He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentence, why does someone have to say, "Well, I know but it might have been His will to allow some to disbelieve". Everyone has heard the Word in the Western world. We can't blame God if they decided they didn't want to accept what He offered us. He didn't line us up like the Nazis lined up people where one line would live and the other would die. That's Calvinism and I reject that idea.

Just because He knew who would or would not accept His gift of salvation doesn't mean He didn't give everyone the opportunity or the choice to accept it. It doesn't mean I'm better because I was "chosen" and someone else wasn't. We were all chosen. It's just some of us have so far chosen not to accept the gift of life and fellowship with our Creator God.

Stop making excuses for God. He doesn't need them and we're not smart enough.

You accept Christ as though you were a small child with that kind of faith, and thinking you can out-think God is hubris beyond the pale.

Sometimes I'm glad I don't have a degree, because then I don't try to rationalize God and give Him a psychiatric exam while I'm doing it.

Rob, you do a fine job, but let the conversation go where it goes. If you don't like what you consider to be an insult don't respond to it and it will die out. That goes for everyone, but just because I write something doesn't make it absolute truth. The same goes for everyone else here including those who run the blog as well as the commenters.

I am saying this in harsh Christian love. I am deeply hurt to see part of Jesus' Church going at it like this on things that should be very basic. If someone is a Calvinist say so because not everyone here lives in Toledo or knows each person individually. That gives us the opportunity to judge the comment by knowing a person's beliefs and not taking sides with anyone in a food fight.

I'm not a Calvinist or a Wesleyan. I'm a Baptist and I have no description for my beliefs except I take the Bible at its word and know when a parable is a parable or a fact. Either way I trust in the Lord and trust the words are there for a purpose even if they came from a minor prophet. Stop haggling over one or two verses in the Bible. It's unbecoming and I'm sure it's not pleasing to God the way that conversation has been conducted. We have allowed human emotions to dictate and show the opposite of what Christ wants us to be.

If you want to delete me you can, but I don't see a need for a point by point rebuttal to what I have said.

AndThenSome said...

May I respond to some of your points, Jeanette, or would you just dismiss them as "atheist attacks?"

Rob R said...

Right, they were positive, but they weren't on topic.

It was a matter of what's fair but it's also a matter of business. I will sometimes post a blog where I want points to be established and when people hop from tangent to tangent, the main objective gets lost and any establishement of a point becomes obscurred in the red herrings. It's not to say that those further considerations aren't important. Now when the manner of debate and whether something is heretical becomes an issue, that to is important, but it's even a further step away from the goals of the thread.

I really see the value in conversations that can explore any and all implications even allowing for chit chat for the human end of things, but then a focused discussion has value as well.

I was once a moderator at two different theology discusion forums and both times, I suggested a rule (and they agreed with it) that protected both forms of discussion. Basically, the members where supposed to respect the wishes of the topic starter. If the topic starter didn't care about tangents or chit chat, then so be it. So it allowed for both a forum that could get down to business and go into depth on a single topic but it also allowed there to be a freedom of thought to allow one to explore issues from other angles. And of course, allowing chit chat in some threads allowed for a social vibrancy.

Of course, even in a focussed thread, one could still branch out into other tangents if they just made a post that said "hey, I think we should discuss so and so, so I'll start a topic on it."

I didn't like deleting all those posts especially since none of them were posted in trollery, but I insist that that blog discussion remain for questions and challenges to what was specifically written.

If I have a philosophical topic, focus will be my general policy. If I post on a news item or make a post like this one, not so much.

Rob R said...

my post just before this was in response to Andthensome, but Jeneatte, I hope what I said to Andthensome explains why I did what I did.

There wasn't emotion in it at all except that I wasn't comfortable deleting peoples post. In reality, I don't have a problem with addressing the issue for example of matts accusation of heretical views. It's not that he offends me an my thin skin. It's that I am not overly concerned about whether matt thinks I'm a heretic or not. The issue of whether what I believe qualifies as that or not is important, but I don't get motivated to explain that to matt knowing it won't make a difference, so I'm not going to exert myself much for his sake. But I will delete him if he wants to take a post off topic to suggest it. I'll delete CA for defending me, bless his soul, for the sake of fairness and because golly, I really want that blog discussion to remain specifically on that blog.

As for mudrake, I've deleted his stuff mainly when mom would've deleted it (mainly for posting something perverted or personal info) except when I first posted on a philosophical topic and he thought he'd take it off track.

In actuality, my approach I've explained in the post above is the way I've been doin it for years. If you can change my view on that then you'll change my life.

As for the rest of your claims, It's bed time for me and I may address some of them later if I have time. I will say just this for now. The most important metaphysical scripture is the one that tells us that God created humans in his image. That we are like God means God is like us and that explains a lot. That and the fact of special revelation means that God does not want to be inscrutable.

Rob R said...

Oh yes. one correction. I realize you implied I delete LIKE MUDRAKE. I thought you meant I deleated him.

No, I don't delete like mudrake because mudrake has only one standard. "Don't disagree with me." (Or more specifically, don't be an opinionated woman and disagree with me, or defend such a woman, or be related to that woman)

I on the contrary welcome disagreement. It doesn't even have to be a quality disagreement. that will come out in my response.

All I ask (in specific threads) is that the topic be the focus.

Christian Apologist said...

Jeanette,

I appologize if you think there were any hurt feelings being displayed. For my part there were no hurt feelings, maybe a little annoyance. It was a reasonable discussion between two people who have debated before so we may have posted based off information about the other person that others might know. For instance when I called Matt a heretic I wasnt serious. I was trying to make a point because I knew he would take it that way. The point being that if you level a charge of heresy against someone you have to back it up with scriptural reasons why its heretical so that they might turn from the error of their ways and not be condemned.

Jeanette said...

Andthensome,

Since this is not my blog to give or deny permission for you or anyone else to express an opinion or ask a question I have no problem with you posing questions to me. Understand, though, I am not at the computer all day and may not answer you for awhile.

I actually think I have given you my positions and don't know what else I could say in reply to your inquiries, but I will promise to be polite to you if I do answer. Sometimes there is no easy answer for anything. Most times are like that.

Rob, I understand your position but feel a bit constricted by it. Again, it's yours and your Mom's blog to run it as you please.

Christian Apologist, I'm glad you cleared up the confusion on my part that you and others are friends and know each other and have interracted with one another for some time. That's why I said not everyone lives in Toledo and it would be kind of nice to know the background.

If a Christian believer is upset by the contents of the comments because he or she doesn't know these people joke or whatever like that all the time, just think of how it would encourage a non-Christian to go on the attack.

By the way, Andthensome, since I don't have a degree in anything, least of all theology, I am probably the least qualified person to ask a question. The simple fact is I accepted the way a child would and I have never tried to outthink God. It's like trying to actually imagine going back in time from now to the beginning of time and visualizing absolutely nothing but the Spirit and Being of God. It boggles my mind at least.

Christian Apologist said...

If a Christian believer is upset by the contents of the comments because he or she doesn't know these people joke or whatever like that all the time, just think of how it would encourage a non-Christian to go on the attack.

The bible promises that we will be attacked and persecuted by non-believers. I choose to speak the truth to the best of my ability and as the spirit grants me. I try not to modify my words to keep non-believers happy.

Rob R said...

Rob, I understand your position but feel a bit constricted by it. Again, it's yours and your Mom's blog to run it as you please.

Mom's not a fan of the rule either, but my posts are my posts.

There are constrictions for good reasons, but reletively speaking the constrictions are small. You can write anything you want in blogs here other than the ones where I specify otherwise (which is the vast majority). You can even post on a tangent in blogs where I specify that focus will be enforced as long as it is along the lines of "hey, this isn't directly relevent, it's not mentioned in the topic, but I'm starting a blog topic on my blog where we can discuss it," and then you can include a link. Or you can even just discuss it in one of these other non-focus blogs which far outnumber the focussed ones. Bottem line, you can say anything you want Jeanette (well, you specifically and others who are also not trolls), just not anywhere.

For these reasons, I consider the constriction to actually be mild, but the advantages outweigh what is in actuality a small restriction.

By the way, Andthensome, since I don't have a degree in anything, least of all theology, I am probably the least qualified person to ask a question.

While there are advantages to devoting a serious amount of time to the study of scripture, theology, and philosophy towards these ends, and while there is a significant advantage to formal training as well, theology is the task of the whole church, and even though not everyone specializes in it and goes to the same depth and breadth, the theological concerns of the church span the concerns of everyone who thinks and works and has an issue in the church. Furthermore, insights can come from anywhere. You may have answers that don't occur to anyone else, but I know that you also have the humility of character to say that some things that are mysterious to you may be explainable by someone else. (which is not to say that there aren't some mysteries, but with mystery, we must be cautious that in assigning the wonder of mystery to a topic, that we aren't covering ignorance or just plain bad theology)

While the wisdom of God is foolishness to the world and he has made foolishness of the wisdom of the wise (however paul put it), we also have to balance this with the gifts of intellect that certain parts of the church obtain and we have to allow that all tuth is God's truth. Jesus said we are to love him with all our being, specifically including heart and mind.

Everyone with diverse talents has something to bring to the church, as paul said in 1 Cor 12:

12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized by[c] one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink...

...14Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

21The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.



And one more thing, I thank you for your contribution and I want you to know that your comment on demonic/satanic involvement in tragedies was very important to the discussion and an angle that deserves a great deal of exploration, more than I am capable of right now. And I did not and would not say that was off topic since it was highly relevent to the natural problem of evil. So don't feel like you don't have anything to contribute because its just not true!

AndThenSome said...

Hello, Jeanette.

You wrote:

Understand, though, I am not at the computer all day and may not answer you for awhile.

Understood.

Sometimes there is no easy answer for anything. Most times are like that.

Agreed.

...since I don't have a degree in anything, least of all theology, I am probably the least qualified person to ask a question.

I'm not sure why you feel you have to have a degree in theology in order to answer questions about what you believe. Most Christians aren't theologians, and I certainly don't have a degree in atheology, so can we call it even?

Let me start with this question, then: Am I going to hell?

Christian Apologist said...

Let me start with this question, then: Am I going to hell?

Since you have already professed that you do not believe in God and as faith in Jesus Christ as the son of God is a prerequisite to salvation then you will surely perish. But if you confess your sins and accept Jesus Christ as the master of your life you will be given eternal life in Him.

AndThenSome said...

Thanks, C.A., but my question was directed at Jeanette.

Jeanette said...

Andthensome,

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner but I just got back to the computer.

Your question is are you going to hell. My answer is I don't know.

Surprised? Let me explain my answer. From what I have read of your posts there has never been a time in your life that you actually confessed Jesus Christ as your Lord and personal savior, have never asked Him to wash your sins, committed and yet to be committed, in His blood and write your name in the Book of Life.

If you continue in this state until you die and never do what is commanded of a person to do in order to be saved from hell, then the answer is yes, you will go to hell.

But, and this is the good part, you have not yet died and the fact you are interested in these discussions and not just ranting indicates you may be wrestling with the Holy Spirit and may be under conviction of your sins. Therefore, as long as you are alive there is hope that you will accept Jesus as your Lord and personal savior and will be with us in heaven for eternity.

It's not your fault you were born with sin. That goes back to Adam and Eve, but once they sinned they passed that gene on to everyone and when you reach the age where you can tell right from wrong then your sins become your fault because you haven't confessed them and believed in Jesus as the only way to Heaven.

But it's not just a ticket to Heaven. It's so much more. Peace of mind and knowing a Heavenly Father loves you so very much He sacrificed His only begotten son to shed His blood that you don't have to.

Financial crisis? I don't worry about it even though our personal wealth has taken quite a hit the same as everyone else. But Jesus promised us peace that passes all understanding and told us to look at the flowers and the birds. (Paraphrasing) He said they do nothing and God takes care of them. Clothes them and feeds them. If He does it for them how much more will He do it for us, whom He loved so much He sent His son to pay the blood ransom for our souls?

I know my home is paid for and the only debt we have are living expenses and a car and credit card, but we pay off the credit card every month.

If we lost all our income except my small pension check and social security I know God will see to it that we have everything we need. Maybe not everything we want but everything we need.

I have peace with this. I used to worry about everything, but somehow I have a great peace with this and you can't buy that kind of peace.

Pray, ask for guidance from the Holy Spirit, and receive salvation and that peace that passes all understanding. Then ask God your questions face to face when you behold His face.

AndThenSome said...

Thanks for your response, Jeanette.

So, assuming I don't accept Christ as my savior before I die, I will suffer eternal torment after I die, is that a fair summary of your answer?

If so, do you believe your god knew this was my fate before I was born?

Jeanette said...

So, assuming I don't accept Christ as my savior before I die, I will suffer eternal torment after I die, is that a fair summary of your answer?

Yes, it is a fair summary of my answer.

If so, do you believe your god knew this was my fate before I was born?

Yes, He did know, but that doesn't mean He wanted you to have that fate. He has given you the same opportunities everyone else has had and wants you to "surprise" Him and accept His gift of Love so unconditionally given if you will but accept it.

If I walk on the rails of a bridge you can pretty much know I'm going to lose my balance and fall off into the water. This doesn't mean it's anyone's fault but my own. Just because someone told me it would happen and I rejected their advice doesn't make them responsible for my act, even if they showed me the proper way to cross the bridge.

Christian Apologist said...

Thanks for your response, Jeanette.

I hope you dont mind too much if I respond also to these things.

So, assuming I don't accept Christ as my savior before I die, I will suffer eternal torment after I die, is that a fair summary of your answer?

There is not consensus in theological circles as to whether the bible teaches that the suffering and torment is eternal or only lasts until the sinner is destroyed by the flames of hell.

If so, do you believe your god knew this was my fate before I was born?

There is even more division on this subject. Arminians believe that even though God knows the result of your free choices beforehand that this in no way effects the outcome of your free choice. Calvinists believe that because God knows the result of your choices that you are not free to choose otherwise.

Therefore, whatever point you want to make is not valid because the steps in your chain of logic do not neccesarily hold true. Unless of course you are trying to point out the absurdity of either the doctrine of eternal punishment or Calvinism.

Jeanette said...

CA,

There are instances in the Bible where God was going to punish Israel for worshipping idols etc. but because they repented He changed His mind.

Believing He is Omnicient but allows freedom of choice tells me He knew beforehand they would repent, but still warned them of the dangers of not repenting.

I don't see this as Calvinist because I do not believe God chose people to accept or reject Jesus.

Yes, He knew, but we are also told He is not willing that any should perish but all should come to repentence.

The Bible does not contradict itself. It can look like it if we take something out of context but God is incapable of lying and if we believe the Bible is His inspired word then we have to accept that He is not willing that any should perish, so logically I have to believe He put something into each of us to have us accept Jesus if we choose to do so.

I do not believe anyone will be consumed by the fires of hell or why would the angel have to throw away the key?

Just as heaven is eternal life, hell is eternal death. We are told there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

You're looking at being consumed by flames in a physical sense and after death we are speaking strictly in a spiritual sense.

If I thought all that was going to happen to me is I would eventually cease to exist in any form because my body would be consumed by flames or I'd just rot in a grave I might be able to handle that, but that's not what I have been taught nor what I believe.

The biggest regret of the lost in hell will be the loss of fellowship with God. Or the lack of it. In addition, we know from the story of Lazarus and the rich man the dead in hell can see across the chasm and can see their friends and loved ones.

Hell was not made for man but for Satan, and it is eternal punishment, in my opinion. To tell someone anything else would be to lie to them to make them feel good in my opinion.

I realize there is a difference in beliefs just reading this blog, but I am absolute in my beliefs about heaven and hell. If hell is only temporary then one could deduce heaven is also temporary, and we know that's not true, right?

Rob R said...

Calvinists believe that because God knows the result of your choices that you are not free to choose otherwise.

This isn't quite accurate. Many if not most Calvinists believe in free will, but they have a special definition of free will. They say that you are free with respect to an action if you wanted to perform that action. This is called psychological determinism, or compatibilistic free will.

Alot of these calvinists would say that the calvinist who won't even subscribe to that version of free will who are the "hyper-calvinists". (the other thing that distinguishes the hyper calvinist is the belief that God actively chooses both who will reprobate and who will escape damnation. The other Calvinists say that God doesn't actively choose who will be damned, but he only chooses who will be saved and passively leaves the others to their inevitable fate in hell)

AndThenSome said...

Hello, Jeanette. You wrote:

Yes, He did know, but that doesn't mean He wanted you to have that fate. He has given you the same opportunities everyone else has had and wants you to "surprise" Him and accept His gift of Love so unconditionally given if you will but accept it.

There are four inconsistencies here, in my view, if you will allow me to point out: one, that one can thwart the will of an omnipotent being by not giving it want it wants; two, that an omniscient being can be surprised; three, that the unconditional gift has a condition, thus making it conditional. If it were truly unconditional, salvation would be granted to everyone, even those who didn't accept Christ as their personal savior before they died; and four, that everyone has had the same opportunity to accept salvation. Clearly, there have been many millions of people in the past, and millions living today, who have never heard of Jesus and haven't had the chance to accept Him as their personal savior.

If I walk on the rails of a bridge you can pretty much know I'm going to lose my balance and fall off into the water. This doesn't mean it's anyone's fault but my own. Just because someone told me it would happen and I rejected their advice doesn't make them responsible for my act, even if they showed me the proper way to cross the bridge.

Fair enough. But if I were there with you, Jeanette, I would do everything I could to get you down from that railing, including physically pulling you off if I had to. That's because there are times when violating someone's free will is the right thing to do.

Imagine the person on the railing were a child, your own child. What kind of monster would you be if you allowed your child, even after many warnings, to play on the railing of the bridge without trying to stop him? Would you simply throw up your hands and say, "Well, I told him not to play there, but he didn't listen to me. I know he's going to fall to his death, and I don't want him to, but it's his choice?" Of course not! You would be the first one to drag him off the railing. You would be rightly condemned if you did any less.

To relate this analogy to my own situation, then, here I am, teetering not on the railing of a physical bridge, but on the edge of damnation, with your god's full knowledge, but contrary, you believe, to its will. Why, then, isn't it doing more to convince me, at the very least, that it exists?

Rob R said...

Hell was not made for man but for Satan, and it is eternal punishment, in my opinion. To tell someone anything else would be to lie to them to make them feel good in my opinion.

Just a note here. I'm more or less neutral on this aspect of hell, I'm not of CA's view, but this view of damnation, while not as horrendous as eternal conscious torment, is still not something that is warm and fuzzy to make people feel good.

I believe amongst annihilationists, their is a view that all of the dead will be resserected and the unbelievers will be judged and then destroyed (and who's to say that's like going into a pleasent nap... maybe it's excrutiating to have your soul destroyed). That's really not a good thing. In the grand scheme of things

Jeanette said...

I don't know why nothing is convincing you.

Look, I'm human and not God. I can't speak for Him or defend Him as He is perfectly capable of doing that for Himself.

My suggestion is for you to search the scriptures in the New Testament to see what salvation is all about or to go to a minister of the gospel for more definitive answers to your questions.

If you will humble yourself and pray I believe if you really want the scales lifted from your eyes they will be.

When I said you could "surprise" God I deliberately put it in quotation marks because nothing surprises Him. It very well could be you are going to be saved before you die and what a wonderful testimony you would have.

You will have experienced the doubts of atheism to the belief of a born-again Christian and could better tell atheists and non-believers the answers to their questions.

Is there a chance you will check out the New Testament maybe starting with the book of John and then get on your knees and try to talk to the God you believe doesn't exist. Tell Him if He does exist to show you the light. Lead you to the person who can help you understand.

I'm afraid I can't help you much more than to encourage you to do this and I'm not going to be caught up in a series of "what if" questions. I'm not qualified to answer them to your understanding. I hope you understand and want you to know I spent quite a bit of time praying for you last night, asking God to send the one who will help enlighten you.

It all makes sense if you just give in to the message and quit trying to prove God doesn't exist.

Look at the heavens, nature and the human body and you have to conclude something more than dust particles hitting each other made all these things. That something was the Creator God.

God bless you should you decide to make that search. Ask and you will receive. Seek and it shall be given unto you. Knock and the door shall be opened to you.

Try it and get the peace that passes understanding.

Jeanette said...

Rob,

The whole idea is the unsaved should not feel warm and fuzzy over their destiny in the afterlife.

It's hard to tell someone he is going to hell, but he has to know the truth and sugar-coating it makes it worse and I don't want to stand before the Bema seat and answer for why I told someone eternal punishment may not mean eternal.

Rob R said...

The whole idea is the unsaved should not feel warm and fuzzy over their destiny in the afterlife.

Right. And someone of CA's position would say that there view of the damned is not warm and fuzzy. You implied it was. It isn't.

I'm saying that your criticism doesn't really apply to that view.

Rob R said...

Furthermore, the complete desctruction of the soul and conscious awareness is indeed eternal. It's permanent. It's a punishment. Thus it is eternal punishment.

Rob R said...

ANNOUNCEMENT,

Almost done with my post on omniscience.

We're in the proof reading stage.

Christian Apologist said...

I somehow fail to see how, telling someone that if they do not repent of their sins they will have to stand in front of the creator of the universe, Listen to every sin and act of wickedness they have ever done, Be declared guilty and then thrown into a blazing fire to be consumed, is warm and fuzzy.

The reason that eternal death does not sound all that bad is because the riches of the life that we have in Christ is not being properly preached. We are children of God, and heirs to the kindom of Christ. We do not have to worry about where our next meal is coming from or whether we live or die in this first life. We who perservere till the end will live for eternity in abundent blessings. Nothing compares the immeasurable riches of simply knowing the Father and what his will is. With Christ life has real meaning such as it never had when I was an athiest.

AndThenSome said...

I had prepared a response to your recent comments, Jeanette, but there really doesn't seem to be much point if it all boils down to pray, read the Bible, and just believe.

Take care, and have a nice life, and the same to all of you on this blog.

Rob R said...

What, You're not sticking around for the omniscience thread? Its going up today.

Rob R said...

I geuss the rest of us are chopped liver.

Barb said...

I've just been too busy to blog, Folks--my day disappears before I know it.

My 89 year old fuzzy-thinking mom is here --dementia setting in. I've been shopping for her to get her out of her one favorite outfit --dealing with giving her a daily bath (shower) , etc., running back to change sizes in the clothes I buy --and my daughter has had a 3 week battle with kidney stones, so I've been in and out of hospital with her. we attended her school musical last week --today is a chili-supper talent night for Youth for Christ and a baby shower and mom is going to the hairdresser's. I've also been trying to get back to my daily swim --

So I haven't even had time to study your comments of late.

Carry on!

And I have been busy on computer with some church responsibilities in my position there. publicity issues and other things.