Thursday, May 15, 2008


Here follows the subject of an interesting discussion from

Last Friday's Kansas City Star reports that Archbishop Joseph F. Naumann of the Archdiocese of Kansas City has told Kansas Governor Kathleen Sebelius that she should stop taking communion until she repudiates her support for abortion rights. In a column in The Leaven, the official newspaper of the Kansas City Diocese, Naumann indicated that his latest concern was the governor's April 21 veto of the Comprehensive Abortion Reform Act passed by the Kansas legislature. He wrote:

Since becoming archbishop, I have met with Governor Sebelius several times over many months to discuss with her the grave spiritual and moral consequences of her public actions by which she has cooperated in the procurement of abortions performed in Kansas.... I wrote the governor last August requesting that she refrain from presenting herself for reception of the Eucharist until she had acknowledged the error of her past positions, made a worthy sacramental confession and taken the necessary steps for amendment of her life which would include a public repudiation of her previous efforts and actions in support of laws and policies sanctioning abortion.

Recently, it came to my attention that the governor had received holy Communion at one of our parishes. I have written to her again, asking her to respect my previous request and not require from me any additional pastoral actions.

Many writers condemned the Church for bothering the Governor, trying to impose church on state.


The archbishop is saying abortion is homicide. He's saying the governor is a disgrace to her church and disobeying God by trying to be on both sides of the fence, expecting the Catholic vote. In fact, the church may not allow her to be on both sides of the fence. They could excommunicate, I suppose. He's at least really scolding her publically for all the church to hear the message.

Indeed, he is telling all the Catholics to vote and live their faith and quit being liberal about the moral issues. He's suggesting to all the church that they not support such candidates just because they have the label, "Catholic."

Granted, so many of the priests are charlatans and I would hope their pro-life support is sincere and not a cloak for, or distraction away from, the closeted homosexuals and pedophiles among their clergy.

The archbishop is trying to get Catholics to consider that their choices and beliefs have consequences --because that's what he believes, what THEY believe, and what the CHURCH teaches. And I agree with them.

Consequences: she should not have the Catholic vote for her pro-abortion stand. She can go to Hell for her unconfessed sin --for disagreeing with God about what is right and what is wrong. The church says the babies are fully human and therefore have a 'right to life' --which right the constitution also recognizes for all human beings.

The issue is the civil law as much as the church law. Do we want our nation's laws to protect life and stand for right against wrong or not?

The church stands for right --we are to be salt and light in the society. That's why the church RIGHTLY seeks to influence legislation and law. If we, the salt, lose our taste, our "saltiness," we lose our "preservative" quality --we fail to save humanity.

The Governor is part of the church --and she has lost her salt! The church rightly rails against such members --and probably ought to kick them out to bring them back to repentance--before God bars their entrance to Heaven. This IS serious. It's no mere threat of dire consequences (as some commentators have said.)

"God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance and have eternal life."--the Bible


Yankee Doodle said...


California Supreme Court Legalizes Gay Marriage

Jeanette said...

While I agree that abortion is wrong and believe God does not look kindly upon it, I also believe it is between the governor, her archbishop and God. It is between her and God to determine the state of her soul.

I know we have a difference of opinion on once saved, always saved, but renouncing support of abortion or not renouncing it will not get her to heaven or hell in my belief.

That would mean we would get there by works and we can't get there by works.

Being born again is the only way to heaven and that's up to her and God. If she's born again God will let her know she is sinning. If not, it won't matter.

Barb said...

More to the point on this discussion, Jeanette, is that the Catholic Church believes that one can lose one's soul by being excommunicated-- and opposing the church on pro-life stance is a way to get excommunicated, I think. So he is warning her that, according to Catholic belief, she is sinning and unrepentant and vulnerable to excommunication/damnation. Our church says one should not partake of Holy Communion insincerely as to do so is to "drink unto one's damnation." That doesn't suggest he cannot repent and become sincere, however.

Yes, I believe that "once saved always saved" doctrine differs from Catholic and Arminian doctine. But so far, the governor is making her choice in opposition to HER church doctrine--which shows that she doesn't really believe her church doctrine, as many Catholics do not.

that is sad news indeed, Yank. How can we retain God's blessing on our nation if we flout HIs basic creation design for our sexuality???

Christian Apologist said...

Being born again is the only way to heaven and that's up to her and God. If she's born again God will let her know she is sinning. If not, it won't matter.

Don't you think a high ranking member of the church saying that what shes doing is bad is the same as God telling here to stop. God has put the clergy in a position of authority over the lay people for just such a purpose. Now it is quite possible for a member of the clergy to take a stand and be wrong but I dont see how this is the case here. The bishop is making a stand for the sovereignty of human life.

Aside from that the grace of God is not merely for our eternal salvation but also to transform us into a new creation from the moment of first repentence. Good works follow grace like water flows downhill.

Jeanette said...


I have no quarrel with what you said. I do believe (without reading the post again) it was Barb who suggested the governor would go to hell and that was what I was addressing. Sorry, Barb, no insult or hurt intended and I hope none taken.

I know a bit about Catholics since I am the first child in my family on both sides not baptized Catholic and my father's family is still Catholic.

Not receiving the "sacraments" of communion, or of the sick (used to be the last rites) would also condemn a Catholic to hell in their belief. And ex-communication would certainly condemn them to hell in their belief. It's funny they never talk about the redeeming love of our Savior except in roundabout ways, but I know some Catholics, probably many, have been saved. They are not encouraged to take a Bible to church but instead just listen to the repetitious mass.

Barb, I have also been taught we should come before the Lord clean before taking communion, or as we call it The Lord's Supper.

I always examine my soul and pray for forgiveness before partaking of that ordinance.

I think we're all on the same page.

Barb said...

I do think we can go to Hell for disagreement with God about the basic nature of right and wrong --or about our own sin--saying we are righteous and don't need a Savior. Taking catechism and being baptized wouldn't necessary make one a saved Christian in one's heart.

The Guv. is saying she doesn't need to comply with church OR God --if she thinks the Church is wrong about God's view of life, then why is she still a Catholic? She can find churches that will agree with her --man-centered churches. He's saying to his church member, REALLY be a Catholic; don't just pretend to be!

Yankee Doodle said...

Note: Mud_rake had an emotional breakdown on the Yankee Commentary.

Barb said...

I see.