tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1526647904385272392.post7342726439967430926..comments2024-03-28T03:05:37.670-06:00Comments on The Barb Wire: Omniscience and Free WillBarbhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05016832868807957194noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1526647904385272392.post-3100106317327951532009-03-28T10:58:00.000-06:002009-03-28T10:58:00.000-06:00Jeanette, I'm responding to the only thing you are...Jeanette, I'm responding to the only thing you are saying on topic. You don't owe me a response at all but nevertheless the whole object is to state one's belief and give reasons for it and examine those reasons. There is nothing wrong with that and I don't know why you'd respond as if there was.<BR/><BR/>Jeanette, I believe that God knows everything and that God is omniscient... and I explained that in the topic under the subheading "the theological/traditional concern."<BR/><BR/>God knows everything and he also knows that the future is partially indefinite because that is the kind of world that God created, a world where his creatures bring a great deal of definition to the future but not until they actually act to do so, thus a partially indefinite future is what an omniscient God should know in such a world. Clearly as the first set of scriptures that I provided demonstrates, even God himself, who changes his mind on occasion, is not finished bringing definition to the future but does so in response to us.<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><EM>He knows everything, even more than you know. He's God. You're a mere mortal man. End of story.</EM><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>God has revealed himself to mere mortals and has shown his creative power by designing within us capabilities to understand that revelation. We should praise God for this, not treat the gifts as if the possibility of them were contemptable. Jesus has commanded us to love him with all of our minds. And the story of God teaching the church using scripture and our mental capabilities does not end.<BR/><BR/><BR/>I have decided not to enforce the topic rule as doing so has become more of a distraction than I intended. It's a good rule but perhaps it is better for discussion forums (where it was a more of a success) than for blogs for several reasons. I also foresee potential for what I did to be twisted by corrupt persons as the anonymous of this thread was doing. (this would not be a problem at a moderated forum, but blogs are another story for reasons I won't go into) Nevertheless, I note that it is odd to be rebuffed for simply wishing to engage the topic that the whole thread is about when someone, oddly enough, brings it up in the response section. <BR/><BR/>You don't have to give reasons for what you believe jeanette but the whole point here is to do just that. Otherwise, there's nothing to discuss on any topic. I'm not a prophet and a source of revelation jeanette and neither are you, so it is only reasonable that we give reasons, scriptural, traditional, experiential, and rational for what we believe. I don't expect you to take my word for the veracity of my beliefs, so surely you shouldn't expect me to do so for you. If there are no reasons for what you believe, then at best, there is no reason for anyone to agree with you, and at worst, it goes against wisdom to do so.<BR/><BR/>Again jeanette, you don't have to engage the issue as God's not going to judge us for thorough theological coherence, but to engage it with only half measures helps no one.Rob Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08937716910001145836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1526647904385272392.post-41158194859026752872009-03-28T00:17:00.000-06:002009-03-28T00:17:00.000-06:00Rob,I refuse to argue with you. You know my posit...Rob,<BR/><BR/>I refuse to argue with you. You know my position is that God is Omniscient so you can gather from that how I know it.<BR/><BR/>He knows <I>everything</I>, even more than you know. He's God. You're a mere mortal man. End of story.Jeanettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00099630003366955841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1526647904385272392.post-19898435863449997062009-03-27T19:22:00.000-06:002009-03-27T19:22:00.000-06:00God knew Abram's people would break the covenant a...<EM>God knew Abram's people would break the covenant and a blood covenant meant blood had to pay for breaking it. The one breaking the covenant had to make the sacrifice.</EM><BR/><BR/>How do you know this.<BR/><BR/>Now, the picture I present can accomodate this (via statistical necessity). But I still don't know why you say that God knew that his choosen people would break the covenant.Rob Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08937716910001145836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1526647904385272392.post-38625471380497067802009-03-26T23:59:00.000-06:002009-03-26T23:59:00.000-06:00Thanks for the kind words, Barb.In Abram's day he ...Thanks for the kind words, Barb.<BR/><BR/>In Abram's day he was really unfamiliar with the God who loved him. He wanted assurance of his seed passing on since he was old and had no children of his own.<BR/><BR/>He understood the Chaldean beliefs of a covenant so God told him to lay out the covenant sacrifices as a Chaldean would so he would understand what it meant.<BR/><BR/>The two parties to the covenant were supposed to hold hands and walk through the corridor to make the covenant.<BR/><BR/>The fact God put Abram into a deep sleep and walked through the corridor Himself showed He was the covenant holder for Himself and on behalf of Abram. God knew Abram's people would break the covenant and a blood covenant meant blood had to pay for breaking it. The one breaking the covenant had to make the sacrifice.<BR/><BR/>Since God signed on behalf of Abram and Himself He provided the way of the cross as payment for the seed of Abram breaking the covenant.<BR/><BR/>He knew the covenant would be broken by man and He took it upon Himself to seal that covenant on behalf of man and Himself.<BR/><BR/>This led to the cross and the blood shed by Jesus to keep that covenant. We are now under the new covenant because of Jesus' shed blood.<BR/><BR/>Nothing but the blood of Jesus. God had a plan from before He created anything, because in His Omniscience He knew we could not live up to His expectations.<BR/><BR/>This shows a loving God willing to die for us in the person of Jesus who was fully man and fully God.<BR/><BR/>I love Jesus not because He kept me from hell, although that's reason enough to love Him, but because He loved me unconditionally.<BR/><BR/>How many people do we know who love us just because and overlook our faults? God does. He forgets our sin as soon as we confess them and repent of them.<BR/><BR/>When I realized how much He loved me and I should love Him because He loves me I prayed at the church altar (actually the steps to the platform where the pastor preached the sermon) and I cried tears of sadness, joy and every other emotion because of that revelation to me. It's an experience I will never forget. The tears flowed for half an hour and no one bothered me. It was just me and my Lord.<BR/><BR/>Praise God He loves us unconditionally and did something wonderful to redeem our souls.Jeanettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00099630003366955841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1526647904385272392.post-85618271955991064572009-03-26T19:25:00.000-06:002009-03-26T19:25:00.000-06:00Don't feel you have to redeem yourself for a diffe...Don't feel you have to redeem yourself for a differing opinion on this blog, Jeanette. <BR/><BR/>I have just never heard your interp of the covenant before --that God was the only one who signed the covenant for both sides. It is apparently an attempt to explain why He gives His son as a divine sacrifice? I understand the covenant to be a two-way commitment --like marriage --and thus Israel is depicted often as an unfaithful wife or Harlot for not keeping her side of the Covenant.Barbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05016832868807957194noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1526647904385272392.post-83447174577472759492009-03-26T16:01:00.000-06:002009-03-26T16:01:00.000-06:00Jeanette, I don't know how this claim adds anythi...Jeanette, I don't know how this claim adds anything to your argument (except it is on topic):<BR/><BR/><BR/><EM>It is for that reason that God stepped out of eternity and into space and time. To keep the provisions of the original covenant and be a true Son, as it demanded. </EM><BR/><BR/><BR/>Unless this refers to the incarnation (which really needs no reference to time unless one is attempting to balance it with a doctrine of timelessness) I don't know how it contributes to your point.<BR/><BR/><BR/><EM>And when you think of it that's pretty remarkable and shows His omniscience down to the generation that would betray the covenant.</EM><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>I don't think this is biblical. I'm not aware of any hint to abraham that his offspring would definitely abandon the covenant. At best, it is contingent.<BR/><BR/>I do believe that God at one point did tell Moses that the children of Israel would rebel, but to my knowledge, there was no indication as to which generation would do so. In fact, I believe almost every generation fell away to some degree or another. Very early on in the book of Judges, we read of this (long before it got to the point of exhile).<BR/><BR/>Of course, with Moses, what God told him is not necessarily evidence that God knows each individual free choice (as settled) but merely shows that God is the ultimate sociologist who knew after Israel's frequent rebellion in one form or another during God's act of grace (in the exodus) was a sign of bad things to come.Rob Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08937716910001145836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1526647904385272392.post-34696078075218045772009-03-26T15:33:00.000-06:002009-03-26T15:33:00.000-06:00anonymous, that's quite alright if you don't want ...anonymous, that's quite alright if you don't want to discuss things here because as it seems evident to me, you didn't read the contents of the post. This post is not primarily on soveriegnty (How God chooses to use his powers) let alone omnipotence (which is about God's power). Those issues are related, they are definitely related to open theism, and thus they are related to the topic but they are not the topic here. Just because something is related to the topic doesn't make it on topic. That would make it a tangent.<BR/><BR/>suggesting that I censured the minority position is just silly. My whole post asserts a minority position amongst evangelicals. It's not even a clear majority here as christian apologist has either embraced the open view or he's sympathetic while Barb and Jeanette have articulated disagreement, Masoni has articulated disagreement (and regratably does not follow up with the responses given to him). Furthermore, other people who've participated here would not agree with what I've written such as matthew and antipelagian.<BR/><BR/>You never said anything here about omniscience. I can only assume that you don't know what Omniscience means. Omniscience is about God's knowledge, not about when he decides when to perform a miracle and when not to perform a miracle.<BR/><BR/>As for Andthensome, I treated his question with great respect by offering him a ten page single space response which is the topic.Rob Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08937716910001145836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1526647904385272392.post-83954966360659988232009-03-26T13:58:00.000-06:002009-03-26T13:58:00.000-06:00I didn't mean to scare you all into thinking I'm a...I didn't mean to scare you all into thinking I'm a pagan. :-) I was trying to show that God made a covenant with Abraham that He knew the sons of Abraham could not keep, so He was the only party to the covenant. He did it on behalf of Abraham and Himself, but when the sons of Abraham betrayed that covenant, since God was the only participant in it, it was God who had to atone for it with the blood of Jesus.<BR/><BR/>And when you think of it that's pretty remarkable and shows His omniscience down to the generation that would betray the covenant.<BR/><BR/>I should have worded the first comment as God fulfilling the covenant He made on Abram's behalf by being the "signer" for both sides, knowing it would be broken by Abram's decendants and not wanting them to shed their blood for their sins since that wouldn't cleanse the world of sin.<BR/><BR/>Sorry for the confusion and I hope I have slightly redeemed myself. ;)Jeanettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00099630003366955841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1526647904385272392.post-57004342528722340382009-03-26T13:36:00.000-06:002009-03-26T13:36:00.000-06:00I had to go somewhere after my last comment and th...I had to go somewhere after my last comment and thought after that I should clarify what I said in my last post.<BR/><BR/>God made the covenant actually with Himself on behalf of Abram and Him, knowing Abram's sons would eventually break it and knowing He had a plan for His son to shed His blood to fulfill the covenant.<BR/><BR/>I didn't confuse the Mosaic covenant though, as I wasn't speaking of that covenant.Jeanettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00099630003366955841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1526647904385272392.post-89828825206041008092009-03-26T10:31:00.000-06:002009-03-26T10:31:00.000-06:00Jeanette,Did you read the whole chapter and get th...Jeanette,<BR/><BR/>Did you read the whole chapter and get the context? Even though Abram was in a Deep sleep God was still speaking to him. He was being spoken to in his dreams. Furthermore this was not a breakable covenant. This covenant was to give Abram descendants as countless as the stars and the land of Caanan. These things the Lord brought about 400 years later.<BR/><BR/>A little later God added to the covenant in Gen. 22:15-18 by saying that all nations will be blessed because of his obedience.<BR/><BR/>The other covenant you are confusing with the Abramic covenenant is the Mosaic. <BR/><BR/>Deut. 4:5-8<BR/>"<I>See, I have taught you decrees and laws as the LORD my God commanded me, so that you may follow them in the land you are entering to take possession of it. Observe them carefully, for this will show your wisdom and understanding to the nations, who will hear about all these decrees and say, "Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people." What other nation is so great as to have their gods near them the way the LORD our God is near us whenever we pray to him? And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today?</I><BR/><BR/>And later in verses 25-31<BR/><I>After you have had children and grandchildren and have lived in the land a long time—if you then become corrupt and make any kind of idol, doing evil in the eyes of the LORD your God and provoking him to anger, I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you this day that you will quickly perish from the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess. You will not live there long but will certainly be destroyed. The LORD will scatter you among the peoples, and only a few of you will survive among the nations to which the LORD will drive you. There you will worship man-made gods of wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or eat or smell. But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul. When you are in distress and all these things have happened to you, then in later days you will return to the LORD your God and obey him. For the LORD your God is a merciful God; he will not abandon or destroy you or forget the covenant with your forefathers, which he confirmed to them by oath.</I><BR/><BR/>You see then that it is in Christ we have fulfillment of both covenants. It is by his shed blood that we can find forgiveness and atonement for our transgressions. It is by his resurrection that we are able to partake in the blessings of life and love that are in Christ. These are the very blessings that God told Abraham that the world would recieve through his descendents. He is also of course the fullfillment of the covenant with David to establish a king forever from his seed.Christian Apologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15644769968798609435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1526647904385272392.post-75624603268285962272009-03-26T10:17:00.000-06:002009-03-26T10:17:00.000-06:00Jeanette, I have never heard of God breaking the c...Jeanette, I have never heard of God breaking the covenant with the Jews. I'm no Old Testament or Jewish scholar, but I understand that God said He would be their God and they would be His people. I didn't think that covenant was ever broken by God and that they are STILL special people in His sight. But ALL believers are ingrafted into the Family of God, the chosen ones, ourselves, by Christ's atonement. Sin didn't even break that first covenant on God's side--though they were unfaithful to God --like a harlot. He kept His word to them. <BR/><BR/>The New Covenant is with all who accept Christ --the promise that His blood atones for our sins and re-establishes us as immortals forever in His kingdom, His heaven, if we believe, repent and follow Christ.Barbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05016832868807957194noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1526647904385272392.post-58188234726059481202009-03-26T10:01:00.000-06:002009-03-26T10:01:00.000-06:00Nope, I meant what I said. Since God put Abram in...Nope, I meant what I said. Since God put Abram into a deep sleep and walked the corridor of the covenant Himself, it was with Himself that He made and broke the covenant.<BR/><BR/>Genesis 15:12 records that as Abram waited for God, a deep sleep fell upon him. During that deep sleep; <BR/><I>"it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces. In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:" (Genesis 15:17-18)</I> <BR/>Although the Covenant was between God and Abram (and his seed), God signed on both sides, binding Himself to both parts. Abram and his seed did not remain faithful, and the penalty for violating a blood covenant was death. <BR/>It is for that reason that God stepped out of eternity and into space and time. To keep the provisions of the original covenant and be a true Son, as it demanded. <BR/>And having kept its terms on behalf of sinful humanity, it was incumbent upon Him to make payment, as justice demanded, for its violation by those on whose behalf the covenant was signed. <BR/>To be torn and rended like the animals that formed the corridor through which God alone passed.Jeanettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00099630003366955841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1526647904385272392.post-91803890763568040792009-03-26T08:31:00.000-06:002009-03-26T08:31:00.000-06:00He loves you so much that He put Abraham into a de...<I>He loves you so much that He put Abraham into a deep sleep after preparing a place for a covenant between Abraham and God. The one who broke the covenant was required to offer a blood sacrifice for breaking it. Since God was the only one who participated in the covenant and He broke it, it was His blood in the human and God body of Jesus Christ that was shed to pay for that broken covenant.</I><BR/><BR/>I sincerely hope you meant that Abraham was the one who broke the covenant. God never breaks his covenants. He remains faithful to every promise he makes. If you dont beleive me on this you should really read Genesis-Joshua. Probably Psalms as well.Christian Apologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15644769968798609435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1526647904385272392.post-10028010860396699842009-03-26T01:54:00.000-06:002009-03-26T01:54:00.000-06:00Anonymous,I'm sorry you feel you can't comment on ...Anonymous,<BR/><BR/>I'm sorry you feel you can't comment on this thread about your questions due to Rob's rules. I have a problem with that too and don't want to go to an old post to comment on it, but to try to answer your question I'll take the chance of being bumped off this thread with this comment.<BR/><BR/>The Bible says it is given unto all men to die and after that the judgment. That means Christian believers as well as non-believers. Our bodies will all die sooner or later with or without the help of a doctor unless Jesus returns first and takes us up with those who have already died.<BR/><BR/>Our bodies are just a shell to hold our souls. What goes into the ground becomes dust. That's the same for the redeemed and the non-redeemed.<BR/><BR/>It's what comes after that is important. Those who are redeemed by the shed blood of Jesus Christ have their souls go directly to heaven while those who are not redeemed wait for hell. When Christ returns our bodies will be recreated and in such a way as to be perfect. Our bodies will join our souls and we will look like ourselves in our prime, or if we were malformed in life we will not be in the afterlife.<BR/><BR/>Our souls are really us, not our bodies. You can call it your mind, your heart or anything else. I don't know what part of my body is my soul, but I know it is a spirit just as God is a Spirit. This is what I believe He meant when He said "Let us make man in our image." Notice He used the plural. He was speaking of someone other than Himself and it wasn't the angels. It was the Son and the Holy Spirit.<BR/><BR/>Even the angels have free will as demonstrated by Satan, a high angel who felt he was as good as God, who fell and took a third of the angels of heaven with him.<BR/><BR/>God doesn't want someone who doesn't want and love Him. So He lets us choose.<BR/><BR/>The man in Austria who repeatedly raped his daughter for 24 years and had 7 children with her could, in his warped mind, have thought she was devoted to him because she never left him or probably didn't resist him after a time. But if he had given her the combination to the door to get out she would have done so. This is not love. If she had willingly gone through what he put her through and had the ability to leave and didn't then an argument could be made she chose to stay with him because she loved him.<BR/><BR/>It's the same with God. He could have fixed it so we all obeyed Him and never dissented, but how many of us would have secretly hated that "bondage"? So He gave us the chance to "stay" with Him or to leave Him.<BR/><BR/>It's really so simple and yet so hard for some to realize. God loves you, Anonymous, and you are not anonymous to Him. He loves you so much that even the hairs on your head are numbered, and every day when you lose a few hairs as we all do that number changes.<BR/><BR/>He loves you so much that He put Abraham into a deep sleep after preparing a place for a covenant between Abraham and God. The one who broke the covenant was required to offer a blood sacrifice for breaking it. Since God was the only one who participated in the covenant and He broke it, it was His blood in the human and God body of Jesus Christ that was shed to pay for that broken covenant.<BR/><BR/>It wasn't just blood Jesus shed; it was Godly blood. And then Jesus did something no one else has ever been able to do. He dismissed His spirit. People commit suicide all the time, but none have ever dismissed their spirits. Jesus had that power and did so and then He went to hades and retrieved the souls of the Old Testament saints and took them to heaven with Him. Some say He preached in hell for 3 days. I've tried to study that and can't find the exact verses but He probably told them what His death meant and what they missed.<BR/><BR/>God loves you, Anonymous, and if you will love Him back and accept His sacrifice made for you, you will have a special name in heaven known only to God and you. How special is that?<BR/><BR/>He knew you when you were in your mother's womb. Who else can say that? I have had two children and a miscarriage and though I loved each one when I knew about them I never knew them until they were born. One I still don't know but will know one day.<BR/><BR/>You have questions and that's natural, but you have to have some faith also to believe in anything. You have faith the chair you sit in won't fall or you wouldn't sit in it.<BR/><BR/>Jesus said if we had the faith of a mustard seed we could move mountains. A mustard seed isn't very big.<BR/><BR/>Instead of trying to just prove God does not exist please, at least put into your mind that it is possible what we are telling you is correct and try searching that out.<BR/><BR/>I can't send you anywhere but the Bible and other saved people. Some non-believers get angry with that, but that's the source of all Truth. Seek and you will find. But be serious when you seek so the truth will be revealed to you.<BR/><BR/>May God bless you in your search.Jeanettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00099630003366955841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1526647904385272392.post-29831931002089098002009-03-25T21:38:00.000-06:002009-03-25T21:38:00.000-06:00On the contrary, Anonymous, not all of us believe ...On the contrary, Anonymous, not all of us believe that God controls all things --e.g. he doesn't motivate the rapist or the pedophile. Satan is a factor.<BR/><BR/>We think He has the POWER to control all things, but He did not stop Adam and Eve from disobeying Him. He's expecting us to be SELF-controlling creatures --while also interracting in our lives through others, through our choices, through our prayers, etc.<BR/><BR/>As for illness, it's part of our fallen condition. We are under a curse of death and disease because of our bent to sinning as exercised in the Garden of Eden. Because of "original sin." Sometimes God intervenes and cures us. He motivates men of science and doctors to be compassionate and to do research to alleviate suffering. But we also suffer man's inhumanity to man, disease and hardship of a fallen planet which is under the shadow of evil. But we also have access to the light of God and to His transforming power and a second chance at a place described by Jesus --where there will be no more pain, dying, tears.Barbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05016832868807957194noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1526647904385272392.post-30306296505904452252009-03-25T20:01:00.000-06:002009-03-25T20:01:00.000-06:00That is the second time you (RobR) have asked a bl...That is the second time you (RobR) have asked a blogger who has legitimate questions, but who also happens to go against the majoirty opinion, to post on another thread (the first being AndThenSome), because it is 'off topic'. I don't believe questioning god's omniscience etc. IS off topic. Therefore, this is the last I will write on the issue - on this thread or elsewhere. <BR/>I do not deny that death is a necessity - sure that's fine, and if god does choose to take his creation away and so on, that is fine. However, I know that many (all?) of you believe that god controls ALL things, and this includes sickness and the taking away of said sickness. That is, he is the one who decides to make people sick, and the one who decides to make people well. Therefore, if you fall ill, then that is god's will. If you seek help to try and get better, isn't that going <I>against</I> god's will??Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1526647904385272392.post-16906465873700642862009-03-25T16:37:00.000-06:002009-03-25T16:37:00.000-06:00Anonymous, you ask a good question, but I would as...Anonymous, you ask a good question, but I would assert that I have already answered part of the question in my thread "three problems of evil" which I posted at this blog on march 9. The whole topic of that blog post is relevent to your question, but of particular relevence is the section titled "Embodiment and the Natural Problem of Evil" within that post.<BR/><BR/>To get at your answer, I really think a fuller context is necessary (one of which has been hinted at here by barb and Jeanette, regarding the "death sentence"). There is the question of why God allows suffering and death at all. Secondly, if we have an answer to that (and I believe I do, unless someone wants to examine my reasons and object) there is the question of why God intervenes and ends suffering or delays death and why would he do that in some situations but not others. Third, there is the question of why God allows Christians to suffer.<BR/><BR/>I have not answered all of these questions and I don't know that I have complete answers, but there is much that I could say on the issues that I have not addressed.<BR/><BR/>Currently right now, I do not have time. I may in a day or two.<BR/><BR/>If I answer these questions, I will either do so in the blog on the problem of evil or I will start a new topic on it.<BR/><BR/>If you persist in this discussion though, there are some blog topics where I would insist that you stay on topic and this is one of them (though as I said, I would be more lax in this thread than I am in the 3 problems of evil thread). So please carry on the discussion in one of the other topics (like the bloggin delays thread) or even the 3 problems of evil thread where it is sufficiently close to the topic. Thank you for participating any way and your questions are good ones.Rob Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08937716910001145836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1526647904385272392.post-77956613785675431542009-03-25T14:31:00.000-06:002009-03-25T14:31:00.000-06:00When we pray we should always pray for God's will ...When we pray we should always pray for God's will to be done, even if it conflicts with our will.<BR/><BR/>Just because we ask God to heal someone does not mean He will grant that request.<BR/><BR/>The job of that person on earth may be finished and it's time for God to call that person home.<BR/><BR/>Going to heaven is a fate better than death because it is eternal and painless, joyful and never a worry again.<BR/><BR/>What's so hard to understand about that unless you are someone who is trying to diminish God?Jeanettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00099630003366955841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1526647904385272392.post-70037639320547869472009-03-25T13:51:00.000-06:002009-03-25T13:51:00.000-06:00That verse also says "we are condemned already" --...That verse also says "we are condemned already" --i.e. we all DO die. There is a death sentence upon all living things --but Jesus rose from the dead. <BR/><BR/>Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live."<BR/><BR/>With a promise like this, miraculous healing isn't so necessary, much as we all want it for our loved ones and ourselves. <BR/><BR/>He didn't promise that we would always have healing if our faith was great enough. We pray according to His Will and accept that suffering is a part of the curse of mortality. We are mortal --but our redemption draws near!Barbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05016832868807957194noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1526647904385272392.post-57372413085147648962009-03-25T13:44:00.000-06:002009-03-25T13:44:00.000-06:00Jesus showed us his power through His healings. W...Jesus showed us his power through His healings. We are instructed to pray for the sick, annoint them with oil, and ask for healing. <BR/><BR/>I don't know why He doesn't heal everyone who asks --and doesn't do it miraculously, but I believe there are such miracles --though not always easy to prove. <BR/><BR/>Some people feel it's our lack of faith--but then those who demonstrate great faith refuse to get doctors --and people die of preventable, curable, manageable illnesses. <BR/><BR/>But just because God doesn't show His miracle power everytime we ask or have need, does not mean that He does not exist, that He does not love, that He will not take us to Heaven when we die. <BR/><BR/>The important thing is to have a saving faith that takes care of us eternally --no matter if we suffer here on earth or not.<BR/><BR/>We are all going to die; Jesus promised, "Because I live, you shall live also." "for God so loved the world that He gave His only son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life. For God sent not His son to condemn the world but that the world through Him might be saved."Barbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05016832868807957194noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1526647904385272392.post-63036401986519713142009-03-25T06:04:00.000-06:002009-03-25T06:04:00.000-06:00So god CAN cure or heal us, but just decides to do...So god CAN cure or heal us, but just decides to do it through "helpers" only? If he didn't, as you say, then everyone would be Christians! Why would he not want that?? It completely doesn't make sense. <BR/>When I was a kid, I used to wonder - for example if I saw a car crash on the news and where people had died - why didn't they report that no Christians were ever killed, because SURELY if god could stop it, he would give his followers a peaceful death at least. Then I figured.. well... if you take god out of the equation, it makes sense! <BR/>I think it is ridiculous to assume that god can do something, but decides not to, and ridiculous to believe in a god which can do these things if you pray and ask him, but still seek medical help.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1526647904385272392.post-26849256211917195812009-03-24T23:51:00.000-06:002009-03-24T23:51:00.000-06:00to add to jeanette's good answer:the Bible doesn't...to add to jeanette's good answer:<BR/><BR/>the Bible doesn't tell us our faith is lacking if we seek the aid of physicians.<BR/><BR/>But we get the idea that if we REALLY believed God would heal, we'd demonstrate this faith by not going to doctors. And as J said, many people have lost their children to such faith.<BR/><BR/>We should not presume upon God to do the miraculous when he has given us helpers. If Christians always got their miraculous cures, who would not be a Christian? We are to believe though we "have not seen" or received the miraculous.Barbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05016832868807957194noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1526647904385272392.post-36136469088022182712009-03-24T21:50:00.000-06:002009-03-24T21:50:00.000-06:00In some denominations, Anonymous, people do not go...In some denominations, Anonymous, people do not go to doctors and as a result their children die from lack of treatment for cancer etc.<BR/><BR/>My daughter-in-law has non-Hodgkins lymphoma in remission. It is in remission because she sought medical help.<BR/><BR/>God gives us those tools to get healed. Luke was a physician.<BR/><BR/>Of course we pray and ask others to do so with us because Jesus said where one or two are gathered together in His name He will be in the midst of them.<BR/><BR/>We always ask God to work through the hands of the doctor.<BR/><BR/>Your question reminds me of the joke of the man who was in a flood zone and was offered the opportunity to get out of his house by the firemen. He refused, saying God would take care of him. Later, when the water was higher a boat was sent to rescue him and he refused, saying God would take care of him. Later he was on his roof and a helicopter was dispatched to rescue him. He refused saying God would take care of him.<BR/><BR/>When he drowned and went to heaven he asked God why He didn't rescue him. God told him, "I sent the fire department, a boat and a helicopter. What more did you want me to do?"<BR/><BR/>The point being we should use all available resources and depend on the will of God to heal us. Not all get healed, and then we just go on to heaven which isn't a bad thing.<BR/><BR/>Rob, you are being more than fair and I appreciate that even if I disagree with your conclusions.Jeanettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00099630003366955841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1526647904385272392.post-84911189722569002552009-03-24T21:12:00.000-06:002009-03-24T21:12:00.000-06:00Just a question: If someone is sick, for example,...Just a question: If someone is sick, for example, has a broken leg or a flu, do you take that person to a doctor to get treatment or do you just pray? Everybody goes to the doctor, and perhaps you pray too. BUT, if you think that god <I>really does</I> have infinite power to heal etc., why not just pray? Aren't you going against god's wishes if you go to the doctor? After all, if you're sick he has the power to heal you right? It seems if you get treatment, your trust is lacking.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1526647904385272392.post-50386556524861014922009-03-24T11:04:00.000-06:002009-03-24T11:04:00.000-06:00I'm just having great difficulty with this whole t...<I>I'm just having great difficulty with this whole train of thought. I've prayed about it and consulted with my pastor and others who are godly people, and none disagrees with my views. So, is it a denominational thing? If so, I'll stop questioning you as I don't participate in Presby conversations because I do not believe in pre-destination.</I><BR/><BR/>Actually predestination is one of the logical outcomes to the belief in omniscience and omnipotence. Open theism is an attempt to define some logic boundaries whereby human beings have free will as described in the bible.Christian Apologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15644769968798609435noreply@blogger.com